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Fun on the Hannity Forums

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Fun on the Hannity Forums

This post has 109 Replies | 10 Followers

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Aquila Posted: Tue, Jun 15 2010 10:41 PM

Few things on this planet are more entertaining then pointing out the statism of "small-government" conservatives and watching them squeal. The left-liberal arguments against Austro-libertarianism and market anarchism are very similar to those of neo-cons. On the scale of economic liberty, they are virtually indistinguishable. 

I've been having a lot of fun but I have to sleep sometime. Reinforcements would very welcome if any of you want to hop in the fray:

http://forums.hannity.com/showthread.php?s=82bd36272ebc3a42856fe320b9a42f3a&t=1979401&page=8

This immigration thread is my personal favorite.

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Michael J Green replied on Tue, Jun 15 2010 11:27 PM

Wow... I didn't expect to see so many anti-capitalist sentiments. Not just in regards to the free movement of labor, but a strong support for government regulation and minimum wage. I expected to go in there and see you trolling, but you've done a very good job and written some great posts. That doesn't convince me the cause is all that worthy, and I never feel good about flooding a hostile forum, but I applaud you nonetheless.

It's sad you can't get over the whole "illegal" thing. The mere fact that the state has declared immigration outside its arbitrarily chosen guidelines to be illegal is apparently enough for these conservatives. If it has been declared illegal, then it must be intrinsically wrong.

"People kill each other for prophetic certainties, hardly for falsifiable hypotheses." - Peter Berger
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chloe732 replied on Tue, Jun 15 2010 11:39 PM

Aquila,

This is classic: "At the root of interventionism lies what free market economist Ludwig von Mises called the anti-capitalist mentality. People who hold this mentality, many of whom call themselves conservatives and paradoxically claim to be supporters of the economic system of capitalism, fight it tooth and nail when it comes to the realm of immigration. The time has come for conservatives to decide whether they adhere to the principles of laissez-faire capitalism or protectionism, for they cannot be both. "

Then there's this:

"This is a common misperception, namely, that under capitalism, wages would be so low that people could not afford basic necessities. This only examines one side of the equation and ignores the other. If the labor market were free, it is true that competition would drive prices down. But there is also competition amongst producers for labor. If the income tax and other anti-capitalist devices were destroyed, capitalists would grow in number and wealth thus creating more employment opportunities for labor [emphasis added]. Lower wages also means lower costs of production and therefore a higher net total of goods and services produced. Thus, lower prices. Wages may be "low" in nominal terms, but purchasing power would be high. In a truly free economy with free banking (as opposed to the socialist fiat-currency system we have here in the States) prices would fall [emphasis added again because it is the truth]"

The link to Mises.org is like a free market virus infecting interventionist thought.  I read through the thread, your posts were civil and well reasoned.  Nicely done IMO.  It took me two decades to arrive at the economic conclusions you hold now.  Hope you become an entrepreneur.

"The market is a process." - Ludwig von Mises, as related by Israel Kirzner.   "Capital formation is a beautiful thing" - Chloe732.

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Naevius replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 12:46 AM

Christ, I'm on page 7 and I can't tell you how many times I've facepalmed. They constantly bring up the whole "But it's illegal immigration!" and you constantly shoot it down. I'm quite ashamed to have once been a neoconservative before I saw the light.

That said, you have done an excellent job of holding your own against them as far as I can see. I may sign up and jump in with you (though I highly doubt that I can be of much help, considering I'm still somewhat of a rookie in Austrian economcis). Who knows, if we can sew doubt in even one mind (like doubt was sewn in mine with the abject failures of Bush) then it could have great benefits.

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thelion replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 2:10 AM

Its one of those debates where you won't win. Its your opponents; I suspect they are stupid.

For instance, one or two started opposing practice and theory, i.e., the so called 'real world' and 'in theory'... because apparently as if 'in theory' 2 and 3 make 5, but 'in practice' the answer is between 7 and 8 on Thursdays and 1 and 2 on Fridays, etc., etc.

 

J.B. Say has already remarked on how nonsensical such arguments are. But here's the catch; your opponents do not read books, that is, neither Say nor Menger nor Mises, no books period.

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My Buddy replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:24 AM

They see me trollin'

 

They hatin'

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Lewis S. replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:40 AM

Ha!  Nice work...really.

My personal favorite:

Agreed - Early on in the thread I told the OP his/her arguments sounded like nothing more than a scholastic argument....Something that had nothing to do with the realities of the world.

This is priceless, as is the previous posters comment that your positions are more of a caricature of conservative positions by a leftist.  You knew at some point they would "expose" you as a lefty!

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MaikU replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:07 AM

Illegal immigration is illegal and it SHOULD be illegal!!! Otherwise our security is a myth.

 

"Dude... Roderick Long is the most anarchisty anarchist that has ever anarchisted!" - Evilsceptic

(english is not my native language, sorry for grammar.)

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Lewis S. replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:14 AM

Another face-palming moment was when you posted links on the Industrial Revolution and was accused of "drinking corporatist koolaid."  In fact, I had no idea that neocons even knew of the word "corporatist."  Probably a sign that, within a few years, the meaning of the term will be slaughtered be neocons as they're doing to "free market" and "capitalism."

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Praetyre replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:31 AM

Wait, neoconservatives are calling people corporatists? The same people who champion privileges for government-favoured corporations, defend pseudoprivate entities like energy companies and major banks as products of the free market, and decry anyone who doesn't support the corporate welfare state (not that they mind the left wing one, either)?

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Mises Pieces replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:49 AM

Ugh... I don't understand Hannity's appeal at all.  Even though most all neoconservatives are horribly misguided, at least Limbaugh and O'Reilly come off as otherwise reasonably intelligent.  Hannity is both horribly wrong and horribly dumb.

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 9:16 AM

Ugh... I don't understand Hannity's appeal at all.  Even though most all neoconservatives are horribly misguided, at least Limbaugh and O'Reilly come off as otherwise reasonably intelligent.  Hannity is both horribly wrong and horribly dumb.

Ditto. Even back when I considered myself conservative, I couldn't stand Hannity. At least Limbaugh and O'Reilly have some entertainment value. Glenn Beck is the most genuine of them all, but he's dragging the term libertarian through the manure by using it to describe himself. He also has an off-putting obsession with Revelation and the end of times.

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Capitalist_Pig replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 11:56 AM

A quote from Jagergeist on the Hannity forum

"This is a pretty interesting thread. I agree that people who demand free markets have no ability to then complain when businesses screw over American labor markets and ship jobs overseas. The idea of unregulated markets sucks just as much as the idea of complete government control does. The American hybrid model of capitalism and socialism has been working great."

These guys have to be smoking crack if they believe this stuff. I read a couple pages from the thread, and it seems like Aquila is the only one with a actual argument and logic to back it up.

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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 12:22 PM

They seem to have locked the threads? I'll get on and start attacking everyone left and right for racism and aggression.

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 2:11 PM

Clearly now you all can see who "Aquila" is, an agent of the invisible hand of capitalism. He is clearly a proponent of inequality and the unjust. Unlike many of you all, he does not understand the need for control. The exemplified power of the state is necessary. Through the supreme power of the state and society only then does the individual become supreme (through Collectivism). We must break our chains and free ourselves from the masters of capitalism, Workers of the World Unite!

I love this guy! We need more Marxist impersonators to shake things up.

Though it may become difficult to distinguish between the pretend-Marxists and the neocons.

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The Late Andrew Ryan replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 4:24 PM

.... Decided to join in

:)

"Lo! I am weary of my wisdom, like the bee that hath gathered too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it." -Thus Spake Zarathustra
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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 5:02 PM

how the heck do the forums work? I posted but my replies dont show up??

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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 6:18 PM

Nm. it works backwards. How do you upload an avatar? :P

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 6:52 PM

Yes it works backwards. You can reset this under Edit Options on your User CP. Go to Thread Display Options and change it to "Linear - Oldest First."

 

I was having trouble uploading an avatar as well. Then on about the third try, I could all of the sudden. I don't know what happened. The forum is as fickle as a government bureaucrat.

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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 6:55 PM

Keeps saying i cant either. I think i need a certain number of posts?

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:24 PM

I did it with zero posts.

One person responded to  a three-paragraph post of mine with this:

The Bible says, "The love of money is the root of all evil."
The Bible says it, it must be true!
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Blueline976 replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:38 PM

Aquila:
The Bible says it, it must be true!

Christian conservative forum! Hah.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan
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LvMIenthusiast replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:44 PM

Directed at Aquila:

Yes, Apostle Paul also said this because he thought the end times were near. As a Christian, I must say capital accumulation is a must and I think most people repeat that saying without any knowledge of it's intended context. Just my two cents, however.

But, these "Hannitized" psuedo-intellectuals really try hard to attain the title of Moron though.

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Lewis S. replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:49 PM

Oh no.  Now they are arguing that American and British economic growth in the 19th century was due to protectionism.  This is a new low.

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nirgrahamUK replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:50 PM

Ha Joon Chang ! from Cambridge don't you know ! maybe they are only good at the 'hard' sciences...

Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid

Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring

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Lewis S. replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 7:56 PM

Is it me or are the hardcore neocons dropping out of the discussion?  You guys seem to be arguing with left-liberals and Marxists...it appears the Hannitized automatons may have been shamed into silence.

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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:22 PM

Yeah. For some reason no one wants to defend themselves when you pin them on attacking innocent people :)

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:34 PM

Directed at Aquila:

Yes, Apostle Paul also said this because he thought the end times were near. As a Christian, I must say capital accumulation is a must and I think most people repeat that saying without any knowledge of it's intended context. Just my two cents, however.

I did not mean to offend any Christians or imply that one could not be both religious and civilized (i.e., libertarian). My parents are Christian and fairly libertarian (I'm working on them) and I love them deeply, though I disagree with them strongly in some areas.

My objection is to the neoconservative ilk of religiosity that preaches statolatry alongside Christianity. You clearly do not fit this description, and neither does Robert Murphy, Jeff Tucker, or any other good folks here who happen to believe in a deity. Atheism is not a necessary prerequisite to liberty.

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:38 PM

Is it me or are the hardcore neocons dropping out of the discussion?  You guys seem to be arguing with left-liberals and Marxists...it appears the Hannitized automatons may have been shamed into silence.

Actually, many of the left-wing arguments you see are coming from neocons who started out posing as free-marketeers. Once they are shown to be frauds, they drop the charade and revert to where they are comfortable--right alongside their pretend enemies the left-liberals.

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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 8:46 PM

The left and right all believe the same thing anyway. Its just a matter of cutting through the fatty rhetoric to the loose skeletons of ideology.

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The Late Andrew Ryan replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 9:28 PM

"The left and right all believe the same thing anyway. Its just a matter of cutting through the fatty rhetoric to the loose skeletons of ideology."

You're right too... Yesterday I would have disagreed.

The whole last few hours has been one f*** of an eyeopener. Jesus christ the one guy with the obama avatar is obviously either a dropout or below the age of 14, and this person with the hocky players in his signature seems to be a pro at spitting off highschool U.S history facts... Ugh... Whenever I feel too good about America and the human race I'll go back to the hannity forums for a small vacation in hell.

It won't let me acess my personal page though

"Lo! I am weary of my wisdom, like the bee that hath gathered too much honey; I need hands outstretched to take it." -Thus Spake Zarathustra
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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 9:33 PM

Aye. I like how he drops arguments he can't possibly win :)

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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 9:47 PM

But god he seems only dimly aware that someone is disagreeing with him.

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E. R. Olovetto replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 9:57 PM

All their 41k post vet can say in response to Rothbard and Mises is, "OMGZ! Opinion piece!!!".

Late Andrew Ryan, you got to wait 24 hours before editing any options, like the stupid backwards threads.

Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave.—Karl Kraus.

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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:18 PM

What do you think the chances are that we can get them on violating forum rules? It says trolling is against the rules... he seems like he continues posting to save face.

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chloe732 replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:23 PM

You guys are in the process of de-Hannitizing the Hannitized.   You provide rational arguments, civil tone, links to Mises.org, quotes from Rothbard, lInks to the PDF of Economics in One Lesson.  I'm sure they have never heard of that book or have any idea who Hazlitt was (I know I didn't when I was Hannitized).

Linking these guys to Mises.org could have a profound effect when more of the Hannitized begin to question what they think is true.  And they will.

"The market is a process." - Ludwig von Mises, as related by Israel Kirzner.   "Capital formation is a beautiful thing" - Chloe732.

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:23 PM

Sounds rather petty. I'm there for a good fight (intellectually, that is), not to use rules and technicalities to make ad hominem assaults on forumers.

But I agree with you that this guy is clearly a spammer.

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:24 PM

I like that phrase. "De-Hannitizing the Hannitized." It has a nice ring to it.

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Libertyandlife replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:34 PM

I like how that thread makes neocons look like Marxists. Much more amusing then revolution left.

Freedom has always been the only route to progress.

Post Neo-Left Libertarian Manifesto (PNL lib)
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Sieben replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 10:38 PM

Any ideas for a new thread?

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