Must See Movies

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Nielsio replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 8:33 AM

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Merlin:

I must strongly advocate Fight Club. First of all, it’s an amazingly well-done movie, and its entertaining to see each time. But more importantly it uses the only approach possible these days to speak of anarchy: anarcho-primalism. If most people will take it only in this form, so be it. The fact remains that, despite blatant anti-consumerism, blaming all on money and so on, Fight Club is by far the closes thing I’ve seen on screen to an actual advocacy of the abolition of the State. V for Vendetta (the movie, of course) is nothing in comparison.

We don't want a primitive society. We want to move forwards, not backwards.

We want to replace a monopolistic government with private rating-, arbitration and protection agencies. Same thing for money and all other goods and services. Moving towards NO property rights is worse than the degree of property rights that people believe in now.

There are things very positive and pure out there, and by settling for something crappy you are inevitably lowering your standards.

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Nielsio replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 8:36 AM

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Oh, and btw, if you're going to be advocating anti-capitalism and anti-consumerism then what you're actually pushing people towards is socialism NOT anti-statism.

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Merlin replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 8:44 AM

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Nielsio:

We don't want a primitive society. We want to move forwards, not backwards.

We want to replace a monopolistic government with private rating-, arbitration and protection agencies. Same thing for money and all other goods and services. Moving towards NO property rights is worse than the degree of property rights that people believe in now.

There are things very positive and pure out there, and by settling for something crappy you are inevitably lowering your standards.

I agree but as long these concepts are not clearly embodied in movies, I believe we must categories Fight Club as at least a (poor) starting point. It’s certainly better than nothing, and arguably better than V which is invariably included in such lists.

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Conza88 replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 8:54 AM

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Merlin:

better than V which is invariably included in such lists.

Then argue for it's removal, don't promote "trash" just because there is other "garbage" in the list.

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Nielsio replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 8:56 AM

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Merlin:

I agree but as long these concepts are not clearly embodied in movies, I believe we must categories Fight Club as at least a (poor) starting point. It’s certainly better than nothing, and arguably better than V which is invariably included in such lists.

1. "It's better than nothing" is a terrible standard.

2. There are thousands and thousands of movies that are better. They don't need to be pro-anarchy to be a force for freedom. A movie against child abuse is also a force for freedom.

3. I disagree that Fight Club is better than nothing. All it does is bitch against the concept of a job, the concept of being a consumer, etc, etc, and it's totally psychotic. "Let's beat each other in the face; what a great idea!". Yes, it's close to some valid points throughout the movie, but unless those points are actually reached, it does nothing for freedom. And I'll repeat: all it does it push people towards socialism, which is the only alternative they know.

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Merlin replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 9:03 AM

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I believe that after watching Fight Club people are indeed closer to a “primitivist” point of view, but they have also been introduced to the cardinal concept of statelessness, in a non-dreamland, non-fairytale way. Primitivism/socialism “gains”, but statelessness also gains, and the marginal gain of statelessness is, I believe, higher (no quantification intended) for most viewers, simply because statelessness has almost no currency at all. A small gain for us is simply invaluable as compared to yet an other gain for “them”. It's a "net gain", and that's why I advocate the movie. But than again, that’s just me.

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Anders Mikkelsen replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 10:17 AM

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Fight club is brilliant. Hower I don't see how it is directly anti-state. If anything it indirectly anti-state.

It is a movie at the end of the violent and bloody 20th century. The insanity of everything is a critique of the 20th century. The main character has no family, no home, no community, nothing. His job is morally dubious. He doesn't even know what his own life should be. Violence fills the void in his life. The main character is basically insane. It's like the culmination of the 20th century -

"Look good and hard you progressives, socialists, establishment liberals and conservatives, and all other statists. This world is what you wanted. How do you like it now? This is your dream, and it is a nightmare!"

Libertarians are against private and public violence. The people in fight club are revolting. They're moving in the wrong direction until the end of the movie when he start to come to his senses.

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twistedbydsign99 replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 10:42 AM

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I personally liked "On the waterfront" if you can watch a movie from 1954.

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MMMark replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 3:17 PM

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Thurs. 10/03/11 16:18 EST
.post #08

Conza88:

What did I miss?

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Marko replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 3:24 PM

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Anders Mikkelsen:

"Look good and hard you progressives, socialists, establishment liberals and conservatives, and all other statists. This world is what you wanted. How do you like it now? This is your dream, and it is a nightmare!"

Who are you quoting here?

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Nielsio replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 3:26 PM

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Marko:

Who are you quoting here?

He's paraphrasing metaphorically.

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von Vodka replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 3:29 PM

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Don't know if these been mentioned,

Barry Lyndon, Paths of Glory (and anything by Kubrick)

Pulp Fiction

No Country for Old Men

12 Monkeys

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Marko replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 3:30 PM

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Nielsio:

He's paraphrasing metaphorically.

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Merlin replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 3:42 PM

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Anders Mikkelsen:

Fight club is brilliant. Hower I don't see how it is directly anti-state. If anything it indirectly anti-state.

It is a movie at the end of the violent and bloody 20th century. The insanity of everything is a critique of the 20th century. The main character has no family, no home, no community, nothing. His job is morally dubious. He doesn't even know what his own life should be. Violence fills the void in his life. The main character is basically insane. It's like the culmination of the 20th century -

"Look good and hard you progressives, socialists, establishment liberals and conservatives, and all other statists. This world is what you wanted. How do you like it now? This is your dream, and it is a nightmare!"

Libertarians are against private and public violence. The people in fight club are revolting. They're moving in the wrong direction until the end of the movie when he start to come to his senses.

Great post!

I too got that impression that the movie hints that there’s nowhere else to go with a ‘liberal’ mindset. It invites one to think, or at least it certainly did so with me.  

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Anders Mikkelsen replied on Mon, Mar 15 2010 3:56 PM

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Marko:

 

Nielsio:

He's paraphrasing metaphorically.

Pretty good. "This is your dream, and it is a nightmare!"

Thank you. Nielsio is correct. I did have in mind the scene in The Watchmen comic about The American Dream -

[Dan and The Comedian, in the midst of a riot]

Dan Dreiberg: But the country's disintegrating. What's happened to America? What's happened to the American dream?.

The Comedian: [brandishing shotgun] It came true. You're lookin' at it. Now c'mon... let's really put these jokers through some changes.

One of my favorite parts of the movie too.

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bloomj31 replied on Mon, Mar 15 2010 4:07 PM

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Dark City is awesome.

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Conza88 replied on Tue, Mar 16 2010 12:43 AM

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von Vodka:

Pulp Fiction

von Vodka:

No Country for Old Men

How do these fit into any of the categories?

bloomj31:

Dark City is awesome.

Seen it before or watched because of this thread?

It's great individualism vs collectivism.

Recently saw:

[1954] Shichinin no samurai (Seven Samurai) - Oldschool, yet awesome. Great character development. Pays out the police / state. Defense against invading bandits. Action, not slow at all. Worthy of the list.

12 Monkeys - Good, interesting. Cool twist, kind of bashes animal rightists.. but imo, not worthy of the list.

Sophie Scholl (2005) - What it was like to live in Nazi germany. Put to death for spreading paper at uni.. good exchange at the "trial." Fairly good.

2081 - Finally Equal (2009) - epic! No faults. The hero is mentioned as an "anarchist". He has been wronged. Massive pro individualism, anti statism, anti egalitarianism, anti equality... must seeee.

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Amadeus replied on Tue, Mar 16 2010 1:40 AM

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Saw 50 Dead men Walking last night. Pretty decent. Ben Kingsley never fails to present a good performance. 

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Bert replied on Tue, Mar 16 2010 2:17 PM

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I'm not sure if the movie fits, but I really liked Dirty Harry.  I actually was mad when they couldn't convict the sniper because Eastwood was too harsh on him.  I don't know how the legal situations in that movie would fit this thread, but when you have all the evidence sitting there and you still can't convict the guy due to some legal encroachments it seems rather...tedius and time consuming (and don't take this as an endorsement for cops to do whatever they want).  Any thoughts on Dirty Harry?

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William replied on Tue, Mar 16 2010 10:39 PM

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must see comedies:  Duck Soup, The Americanization of Emily, Dr> Strangelove, and MASH

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Conza88 replied on Tue, Mar 16 2010 10:41 PM

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Bert:

I'm not sure if the movie fits, but I really liked Dirty Harry.  I actually was mad when they couldn't convict the sniper because Eastwood was too harsh on him.  I don't know how the legal situations in that movie would fit this thread, but when you have all the evidence sitting there and you still can't convict the guy due to some legal encroachments it seems rather...tedius and time consuming (and don't take this as an endorsement for cops to do whatever they want).  Any thoughts on Dirty Harry?

If the guy killed someone, (which he had) then the extent he violated someone elses rights, he loses his. If Eastwood kills him, and he turns out to be guilty (the guy murdered) then that's justifiable. If it turns out, he was innocent, then Eastwood becomes the murderer..

*Just for others, if you're recommending someone - try mention why, what category etc.

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Bert replied on Wed, Mar 17 2010 12:10 AM

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Conza88:

Bert:

I'm not sure if the movie fits, but I really liked Dirty Harry.  I actually was mad when they couldn't convict the sniper because Eastwood was too harsh on him.  I don't know how the legal situations in that movie would fit this thread, but when you have all the evidence sitting there and you still can't convict the guy due to some legal encroachments it seems rather...tedius and time consuming (and don't take this as an endorsement for cops to do whatever they want).  Any thoughts on Dirty Harry?

If the guy killed someone, (which he had) then the extent he violated someone elses rights, he loses his. If Eastwood kills him, and he turns out to be guilty (the guy murdered) then that's justifiable. If it turns out, he was innocent, then Eastwood becomes the murderer..

*Just for others, if you're recommending someone - try mention why, what category etc.

Why: (Spoiler Alert) The movie is about a cop, Dirty Harry (Eastwood), who "doesn't play by the rules", and does anything to get the job done.  He's after a sniper, and when he finally gets him (after shooting him, and previously beat by the sniper), he gets "rough" to get information on a missing person who doesn't have any time left.  The sniper is let free in court due to Dirty Harry being to harsh on him (one of his superiors asked him if he's ever heard of Miranda after the case).  Even though they have the gun, and all the evidence they need, the sniper is let go due to a legal technicality (Eastwood being rough).  Eastwood watches him for some time, and eventually as Eastwood predicted, he ends up going back to crime and takes control of a school bus filled with kids.  After Eastwood gets him again, he shoots him in the shoulder and the sniper falls off a deck into a river.  Eastwood then takes his badge and throws it into the river to end the movie.

The movie portrays the nonsense in the courts and in law enforcement and how enefficent they can be (in actually putting real criminals in jail).  As for what category, I guess I would have to put it in law/courts, or maybe if you want to get deeper, how privatized security would be different or more effective in handling criminals compared to now, etc etc.

I haven't seen the other movies in the Dirty Harry series, but I love his westerns, and Gran Torino and Alcatraz are awesome.

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Conza88 replied on Wed, Mar 17 2010 12:38 AM

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Bert:

The movie portrays the nonsense in the courts and in law enforcement and how enefficent they can be (in actually putting real criminals in jail).  As for what category, I guess I would have to put it in law/courts, or maybe if you want to get deeper, how privatized security would be different or more effective in handling criminals compared to now, etc etc.

Yeah, definitely a possibility - although I don't think it's as clear to non-libertarians etc. But that initial "anger" / "outrage" about him being let free, courts, no justice etc.. could be useful indeed.

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Merlin replied on Wed, Mar 17 2010 2:42 AM

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Conza88:

ut that initial "anger" / "outrage" about him being let free, courts, no justice etc.. could be useful indeed.

As already mentioned here, Law abiding citizen too had some very fine lines. But of course. no movie would be Hollywood with a good end. Anarchists must be demonized.

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Marko replied on Wed, Mar 17 2010 3:11 AM

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The Russians Are Coming is a good one. It is this over the top comedy from the 60s. It is good from three aspects. 1.) It satirises the Soviet scare, the people the most gung ho are the most made fun of 2.) It is a cold war movie that shows Russians as just ordinary people much like the Americans and with whom it is possible to get along and 3.) It shows that a militia is a formidable form of defence.

It is not in the 50 most important libertarian movies or anything like that (since it is into fun, not into making a philosophical point), but it is really the sort of flick you can put on and watch relaxed as it will never frustrate you with anything pro-state while it will do plenty of things that will be appealing.

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Conza88 replied on Thu, Mar 18 2010 1:39 AM

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Merlin:

As already mentioned here, Law abiding citizen too had some very fine lines. But of course. no movie would be Hollywood with a good end. Anarchists must be demonized.

Yeah.. :(

Anyway, Bog Murphy offers a movie - "Burn After Reading"

A month or so ago Jeff Tucker urged me to watch Up in the Air (which I still haven’t done). I said that if he wanted to see another movie with George Clooney that had an outstanding appeal for Rothbardian viewers, he should check out Burn After Reading.

I just watched it again and I think it’s fantastic. If you liked the humor of The Big Lebowski, you may end up thinking this movie is in your top ten. (Warning, there are a lot of F-bombs.)

I hesitate to say much more, since part of the greatness of the movie is trying to figure out what the heck it even is as you watch it develop. All I will say is this: My model of government officials was fundamentally altered after I watched this movie. I thought, “Of course that’s how things must be if we could see these guys behind closed doors.”

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Nielsio replied on Thu, Mar 18 2010 2:50 AM

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I'll check out Burn After Reading too.

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Anders Mikkelsen replied on Thu, Mar 18 2010 2:44 PM

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This description of Burn After Reading, which I loved, makes me think of Conrad's book The Secret Agent. In that there are all these plotters and no one really understands what is going on - except the reader. I was wondering why they hadn't made a good movie version of it. In a way Burn After Reading is a slapstick version of it.

This book has an amazing discussion of The Secret Agent and it is funny how similar Burn After Reading is http://mises.org/books/literature_and_liberty_cantor.pdf

Conza88:

Anyway, Bog Murphy offers a movie - "Burn After Reading"

A month or so ago Jeff Tucker urged me to watch Up in the Air (which I still haven’t done). I said that if he wanted to see another movie with George Clooney that had an outstanding appeal for Rothbardian viewers, he should check out Burn After Reading.

I just watched it again and I think it’s fantastic. If you liked the humor of The Big Lebowski, you may end up thinking this movie is in your top ten. (Warning, there are a lot of F-bombs.)

I hesitate to say much more, since part of the greatness of the movie is trying to figure out what the heck it even is as you watch it develop. All I will say is this: My model of government officials was fundamentally altered after I watched this movie. I thought, “Of course that’s how things must be if we could see these guys behind closed doors.”

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Bert replied on Thu, Mar 18 2010 4:05 PM

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I love Burn After Reading.  I was able to get the posters for it from the theater I work at.

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Joe replied on Thu, Mar 18 2010 6:15 PM

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I too am a big fan of Burn After Reading

I think Recount is good too, shows how corrupt elections are.  Anything that shows what politics looks like is a liberty minded movie in my opinion.  

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Conza88 replied on Fri, Mar 19 2010 1:16 AM

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Joe:

I think Recount is good too, shows how corrupt elections are.  Anything that shows what politics looks like is a liberty minded movie in my opinion.  

That' s a documentary though, right? I made a thread over at RPF ages ago, just like this one... except I haven't reproduced it, because updating the OP (editing) is impossible after a while... which is frustrating.. since people click it - then see the origional massive list, not in any order, nor anything discarded. The main thing is in the middle of the thread. So if I find some better alternative / option - I may do that.

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Joe replied on Fri, Mar 19 2010 1:30 AM

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Conza88:

Joe:

I think Recount is good too, shows how corrupt elections are.  Anything that shows what politics looks like is a liberty minded movie in my opinion.  

That' s a documentary though, right?

No it was a made-for-HBO movie staring Kevin Spacey (who was nominated for an Emmy and Golden Globe for the role) and the movie itself won the Emmy for best made-for-tv movie.

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Nielsio replied on Thu, Apr 8 2010 6:29 PM

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Just watched Burn After Reading.

I started out really slow and got funnier as it went along. A couple of shock-moments later. But all-in-all it's just a really random movie. Murphy says it's a look into what's behind government doors, but I disagree because what they were dealing with was totally random. So I don't think it says much about anything except that all the main characters were sad, empty and pathetic.

This movie is not something I would recommend to someone else. These are gifted actors and they can do actual great things instead of this.

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Joe replied on Thu, Apr 8 2010 7:19 PM

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this is all you need to know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQfCdwjk048

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Conza88 replied on Thu, Apr 8 2010 7:50 PM

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I saw Burn After Reading before realises that is what Murphy was referring to. Funny, good, it is up there - but probably not worthy of the list imo.

Though there are good moments.

Logans Run - Boring mostly. Hard to keep my attention. The Island is probably far better. Up there, as classic but not worthy of the final list.

Europa, Europa - Fairly good. Though lower end of the category. Takes both the communists and fascists to task.

Captain Blood - great. Many good moments.

Spartacus - quality. Old school gladiator, with the message being a little clearer.

The Man Who Would Be King - A good adventure movie. British Imperialism. A tinge of anti-primitivism. And what happens when you become king, and act like a God.

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JAlanKatz replied on Thu, Apr 8 2010 8:27 PM

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Conza88:

Changeling (2008) - saw it awhile ago. Better than I expected. Anti-corruption. Also explicit conspiracy element on behalf of police, politicians. Deserves to be in must see.

 

Furthermore, half the movie might as well have been written by Szasz...it's a brilliant, explicitly libertarian movie.

I'd recommend Gran Torino.  Hey, we have one major screenwriter who is a libertarian, we might as well take advantage of him...  

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Matt replied on Thu, Apr 8 2010 10:44 PM

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I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but when I watch a zombie movie it reminds me of a metaphor for collectivism. The zombie horde ( the collective will) out numbers a small group of individuals. Zombies do not produce they are dead and numerous, they try to feed off of the living.

I know zombies were meant to be metaphors for consumerism, especially in Dawn of the Dead.

Anyways anyone else notice this?

Edit: SP

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Merlin replied on Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:28 AM

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Matt:

I am not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but when I watch a zombie movie it reminds me of a metaphor for collectivism. The zombie horde ( the collective will) out numbers a small group of individuals. Zombies do not produce they are dead and numerous, they try to feed off of the living.

I know zombies were meant to be metaphors for consumerism, especially in Dawn of the Dead.

 

Anyways anyone else notice this?

 

Edit: SP

 

I always though that zombie movies where a metaphor for homophobia. “Ah, they want to bite me!”, “if they get you you’ll become one of theirs” and all that as well as the share pleasure of mowing down someone different.

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Merlin replied on Fri, Apr 9 2010 1:28 AM

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Conza88:

The Man Who Would Be King - A good adventure movie. British Imperialism. A tinge of anti-primitivism. And what happens when you become king, and act like a God.

Yes, that's a fairly good one.

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Conza88 replied on Wed, Apr 14 2010 12:16 AM

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The Boys from Brazil ?