Political Theory

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

Anenome — Thu, 13 Dec 2012 19:51:06 GMT

ag4apple:

You win the Internet. But only for today.

Oh, and my thanks.

But in all seriousness, thanks to everyone. Its so SO nice to have a place where I can talk with other like minded people. Sometimes it is very lonely being an anarcho-capitalist.

Have you heard of this thing called Reddit...? :)

http://www.reddit.com/r/Anarcho_Capitalism/

http://www.reddit.com/r/libertarian/

and probably a dozen more subreddits you could find with similar themes and names.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

NonAntiAnarchist — Thu, 13 Dec 2012 15:12:13 GMT

^Make sure to sign up to a few of the new forums then. This once is closing down.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

ag4apple — Thu, 13 Dec 2012 14:17:00 GMT

You win the Internet. But only for today.

Oh, and my thanks.

But in all seriousness, thanks to everyone. Its so SO nice to have a place where I can talk with other like minded people. Sometimes it is very lonely being an anarcho-capitalist.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

NonAntiAnarchist — Thu, 29 Nov 2012 15:36:49 GMT

I ended up giving her Lessons for the Young Economist and For a New Liberty. I'll report back if she sees the light and becomes a libertarian.

Those were my choices! What do I win?!

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

SkepticalMetal — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:53:56 GMT

@ Aristippus

I have to tell you thank you for listing that book. Highly underrated, I'm really in to it right now.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

ag4apple — Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:06:42 GMT

Some great responses. Thanks everyone. I ended up giving her Lessons for the Young Economist and For a New Liberty. I'll report back if she sees the light and becomes a libertarian.

I haven't read For a New Liberty myself, so I'm going to start on that next. Looks great.

Cheers

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

Clayton — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:57:11 GMT

Sorry, no, that was directed to Ark de Grande and any other lurkers who might feel intimidated by graphs. This is a pet peeve of mine as I feel the econ profession tries to snow people with graphs which is really the most absurd kind of wizardry because graphs are actually so easy to understand. The trouble starts in high school where most people are not given a truly intuitive grasp for what a graph is and there's just no good goddamn reason for this. The mathematicians also do their damnedest to mystify these things by focusing on things like poles and discontinuities which give the student the impression that graphs can be these very "dangerous" "mysteriuos" entities that only PhD inductees of the Holy Temple of Mathematics can use correctly with confidence. Nonsense. Everyone who can read and write can use a graph.

Clayton -

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

vive la insurrection — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:46:48 GMT

Clayton,

was that directed at me? If so, I really have no idea where you are comming from? If so the closest thing I can think of was the fact that I said I got a B- in Macro. If that's the case - it wasn't the graphs or math. I tend to like graphs.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

Clayton — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 19:43:10 GMT

Don't ever be intimidated by a graph.

A graph is just two number-lines laid at right angles, with some "points" plotted on it:

Each point consists of two numbers because there are two number-lines. (4,5) is the point that is 4 along the horizontal axis (conventionally the "x-axis") to the right and 5 along the vertical axis (conventionally the "y-axis") up. The points themselves can either be a finite set of discrete values or they can be what is called a "function", which is just a way to map input numbers to output numbers. For example, the function f(x)=x just gives whatever number out that you put in. The x in parentheses represents the "input" x and the x on the right-hand side (RHS) states "this function puts out precisely what was given to it". So, f(4.4) = 4.4 or f(3.14159) = 3.14159.

We could define a function g(x)=7 if we wanted (a constant function). This means that for every value of x that you put in, you always get 7 out. This shows that x does not have to be on the RHS, even though it usually is. We could define another function h(x) = x+1. Now, if h(3.14159) = 4.14159. We could define k(x)=x+x =2*x and then k(3.14159) = 6.28318. We could define m(x)=x*x and then m(3.14159) = 3.14159 * 3.14159 = 9.869588...

The insight of "analytic geometry" (Descartes, et. al. ) was that these functions can be "plotted" geometrically in graphical form as shown above. Not only does this aid comprehension of the behavior of functions, it also provides the basis for the calculus of variations (study of the "rate of change" of a function). It can also be useful in providing a "gateway" between geometric and algebraic proofs.

If you are interested in exploring functions, check out this function grapher. Here are some sample things to type in:

x+1

x-1

x+x

x*3

x*4 - 1 (notice a pattern in the above functions yet?)

x*x (whoa, something changes here...)

1/x (whoa, this one's really different!)

To really comprehend the behavior of the function, try choosing a specific numeric value for x and then calculate the equation (e.g. if you choose x=-1 then x+1=0) and then check to see that when you go to that value of x on the graph, the function is actually at the predicted location. Also, try combining the above functions (add, subtract, multiply... even divide) and see what you get.

Clayton -

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

vive la insurrection — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:53:16 GMT

I can't possibly see how such a class would really make one... Understand economics, rather understand graphs.

Maybe, but whats the point on comming in from a left field economics position as an autodidact and doing critiques on "mainstream economics" if you don't even know their fundamentals? I think that's going to send people's "crank" flags on high alert. I'm not being elitist, I'm just saying when people dont put their time and money where their mouth is to at least some degree, they should probably keep silent.

I actually found macro more confusing when I took it (I think I barely got a B in that class). But I remember thinking micro was more comprehehnsible. Of course this was before I knew anything about AE (other than maybe Shumpeter, if that counts) - but I know a lot of "naive" students (that is apolitical / aphilisophical types) end up falling in love with macro and micro courses when they take them - to me it is almost like a psych 101 class; something a lot of students can get into.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

Lady Saiga — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:14:17 GMT

To be a little more explicit, NAP is not pacifism. Someone who believes wrongly that it is, and who has espoused NAP on that basis, could be convinced that way. But since they were relying on a false assumption, it's not the morality that's shaky. It's the understanding.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

Lady Saiga — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 18:11:57 GMT

That's not an effective argument against NAP. And I would argue that a person's dearly held values are much harder to shake than their convictions regarding economics.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

Ark de Grande — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:31:08 GMT

I get intimidated by math (graphs, formulas, etc.). Are those truly necessary for economic understanding?

One of the problems with a fully ethical libertarianism is that it can be shaky in that if you capture a person's morality, you'll capture their economic view. If someone believes that force is wrong and believes in private property, then another person could point out that private property is maintained by force, and that could make the person reject private property. Compare this to someone who supports private property for economic calculation.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

thetabularasa — Fri, 16 Nov 2012 16:11:50 GMT

The Law by Bastiat.

That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen by Bastiat.

These two works cover the best principles of freedom, both in a practical sense and in an economic sense, and both are brief; plus, you can tell your friend that a French classical theorist wrote them, and she'll eat it up.

The Law, as its basic thesis, proves that rights are not issued by governments but by God (or, in essence, the rights of life, liberty and ability to produce property are granted by birth alone).

That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen applies the Broken Window Fallacy in a number of different way, showing people that destroying or stealing property does not create prosperity but artificially redistributes money, thereby forcing the victim to use his capital for maintenance costs in order to replace lost goods.

Re: Two books, and only two, to help someone start down the libertarian path

Lady Saiga — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 18:10:17 GMT

Yeah, I'm really not there. If I comfortably get through Lessons for the Young Economist and the associated manual, I betcha that's as far as I ever go.

I hear this a lot, that to understand libertarianism you have to understand economics. Maybe I don't, and won't "understand" in that way then-

The way I tend to look at is this. My personal ethics rely on NAP. I feel strongly that a philosophy of right living must agree with NAP in order to be ethically consistent. It doesn't enter into my way of thinking that it is, or is not, the most beneficial way of living or any such thing. Study of economics would probably give me a language to express why I think this is likely, but it is peripheral. The central idea is the ethic.