History

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

you12 — Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:27:31 GMT

If I were you I would probably point out the fallacies . She is programmed so debating her won't help. A bit like Madam if all rich people are bad then why do people like Soros and Buffett ask for liberal policies? Why was Obama supported heavily by Goldman Sachs. Why did China abandon communism and India socialism etc.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

you12 — Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:24:20 GMT

Next time the rich people dont care meme comes up ask her if she wants to tax charities.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

fegeldolfy — Sat, 19 Jan 2013 04:38:20 GMT

final update:

today i wrote my essay. unfortunately the question did not allow me to write about the negative affects of unions (it was about andrew carnegie and how well he represented the industrial era) but i did manage to slip in:

1.Who cares if the "robber barons" didn't actually care about the people they donated to?

2.Government achieves revenue through force.

3."Robber barons" enriched the lives of the masses

4.The truth about Standard Oil

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

Elric — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:33:59 GMT

I believe passing the onus onto her may be a bit better. Like asking, how much have you given to the poor in this town, the poor in this school, the poor in this class. She may respond with, I am not rich. Then you can say you make more than every single one of the people in this room, you make make more money than everyone in all of your classes. Her version of rich or yours?

Wish I had your perspicacity when I was in high school.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

shackleford — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 02:21:53 GMT

Say "so what" the next time she says that. "Who cares if they don't care about anyone. That's none of your damn business."

Also, ask her why she doesn't pay more in taxes. After all, nothing is stopping her from donating beyond her "legal" tax burden.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

fegeldolfy — Fri, 18 Jan 2013 01:07:21 GMT

Also,my teacher once again put forward the whole "Rich people don't care about anyone. They only donate to charity to avoid paying more taxes."

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

fegeldolfy — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:53:08 GMT

Well, I can see why that would kind of be outside the scope of any paper you might write in this high school class, but that fact is actually pretty well documented too. See here, in particular Griffin's The Creature from Jekyll Island.

Yeah my textbook says that the Fed was created after the Panic of 1907 by benevolent bankers like J.P. Morgan to "stabilize credit". I just think it would be difficult to write a paper along the lines of "Ok,they were bad,but not for the reasons you think, and the reasons you think they're bad are false". I only get 30 minutes to write it; I'm planning on mainly including a revisionist account of the gilded age and a general critique of unions.

Anyways,update:

This was me inside all during class today:

Seriously,it sucked. Get a load of these gems:

"There was no minimum wage"

"Capitalists were exploiting workers"

"Rich people only care about money"

"The government had to act"

"Regulation,yay!"

Our study question was "Without unions or government,who would control the unabashed wealth of the robber barons?";my answer was "Why does it need to be controlled?"

We also had a discussion of how to "protect the workers" and "help the economy grow". I had a pretty funny conversation though:

Person-We should put high tariffs on goods to protect American businesses and stop corporations from shipping jobs overseas.

Me-Why not take it a step further? Why not have Ohio put tariffs on goods from all the other states? Why not have Virginia stop businesses from moving jobs to Illinois? In fact,why stop there? Why not have Seattle put tariffs on goods from Tacoma? Why not have Ballard put tariffs on goods from Fremont? Why not have 15th street put tariffs on goods from 14th street? In fact,why not have every person,everywhere,be completely self sufficient?

Person-That's not what I meant.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

John James — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:58:56 GMT

fegeldolfy:
No no no, I mean the whole "Fed was created by Morgan bankers or whatever thing". I'll definitely talk about it in my paper on the Great Depression.

Well, I can see why that would kind of be outside the scope of any paper you might write in this high school class, but that fact is actually pretty well documented too. See here, in particular Griffin's The Creature from Jekyll Island.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

John James — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:56:49 GMT

h.k.:
That's still misleading, the reason why the Fed caused the GD to those statist economists, is because it didn't act socialist enough.

I'm sorry...Friedrich Hayek, Ludwig von Mises, and Murray Rothbard were "statist economists"? That's a new one.

So I don't think that's the best reasoning.

The reasoning makes no difference. They all agree the Federal Reserve is responsible. Which makes it even less of a "conspiracy". (But that doesn't even matter, as fegeldolfy said that's not what he was talking about.)

even a mediocre economist like Hayek

Nice.

he's a Nobel Laureate as well.

I said that.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

h.k. — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:51:29 GMT

John James:

fegeldolfy:
Yeah,in my paper I'm not gonna talk about the federal reserve or stuff like that because then my teacher'll think I'm a conspiracy theorist. I'll just defend the "robber barons" and point out the flaws in unions and how peoples lives really got better back then.

Conspiracy theorist? I promise you there is virtually no one who denies the Federal Reserve exists, nor that it is a central bank of the entire country. There's not much of a conspiracy there. If you're referring to the Fed being the main catalyst and driver of the Great Depression, I mean, even that's not an Alex Jones crackpot. Hell Milton Friedman became a Nobel Laureate largely for his Monetary History of the United States work, in which he put forth that very notion back in the 60s. Murray Rothbard was a credentialed economist who argued the Fed was essentially the cause of the GD. Mises and Hayek (another Nobel Laureate) were arguing largely the same thing...to some degree even before it happened.

Even the current chairman of the Federal Reserve (Harvard and MIT alum, and Princeton department chairman and author of multiple economics text books, and former Chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisers) openly stated the bank caused the Great Depression.

Yeah. Total conspiracy nutball crackpot notion right there if I ever saw one.

ShaneDK: What Caused the Great Depression ?

That's still misleading, the reason why the Fed caused the GD to those statist economists, is because it didn't act socialist enough. So I don't think that's the best reasoning.

Friedman is pretty bad on the subject, even a mediocre economist like Hayek has a better comprehension of the business cycle, and he's a Nobel Laureate as well.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

fegeldolfy — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:21:08 GMT

No no no, I mean the whole "Fed was created by Morgan bankers or whatever thing". I'll definitely talk about it in my paper on the Great Depression.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

John James — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 08:01:28 GMT

fegeldolfy:
Yeah,in my paper I'm not gonna talk about the federal reserve or stuff like that because then my teacher'll think I'm a conspiracy theorist. I'll just defend the "robber barons" and point out the flaws in unions and how peoples lives really got better back then.

Conspiracy theorist? I promise you there is virtually no one who denies the Federal Reserve exists, nor that it is a central bank of the entire country. There's not much of a conspiracy there. If you're referring to the Fed being the main catalyst and driver of the Great Depression, I mean, even that's not an Alex Jones crackpot. Hell Milton Friedman became a Nobel Laureate largely for his Monetary History of the United States work, in which he put forth that very notion back in the 60s. Murray Rothbard was a credentialed economist who argued the Fed was essentially the cause of the GD. Mises and Hayek (another Nobel Laureate) were arguing largely the same thing...to some degree even before it happened.

Even the current chairman of the Federal Reserve (Harvard and MIT alum, and Princeton department chairman and author of multiple economics text books, and former Chairman of the President's Council of Economic Advisers) openly stated the bank caused the Great Depression.

Yeah. Total conspiracy nutball crackpot notion right there if I ever saw one.

ShaneDK: What Caused the Great Depression ?

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

fegeldolfy — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 06:08:04 GMT

If you must absolutely must counter something against the teacher, try to not be too antagonistic (happened to me, now im "that kid" in class), just do like:

teacher: boom and bust cycle is the cause of capitalism

you: oh, why is capitalism the cause for the business cycle, blah,blah blah

something like that.

Yeah,in my paper I'm not gonna talk about the federal reserve or stuff like that because then my teacher'll think I'm a conspiracy theorist. I'll just defend the "robber barons" and point out the flaws in unions and how peoples lives really got better back then.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

Kelvin Silva — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 05:53:59 GMT

If you must absolutely must counter something against the teacher, try to not be too antagonistic (happened to me, now im "that kid" in class), just do like:

teacher: boom and bust cycle is the cause of capitalism

you: oh, why is capitalism the cause for the business cycle, blah,blah blah

something like that.

Re: "Robber Barons"-discussion in history class

fegeldolfy — Thu, 17 Jan 2013 05:41:18 GMT

Okay, I get it, you know his classmates. Even though I was a statist in high school, I liked it when somebody argued against what we were forced to learn and tried to make the teacher defend their position. While it made the regular school room drudgery a little more interesting for me, maybe others didn't see it the same way.

I don't really speak up in class;I'm not that good at articulating things.

I think tomorrow we're playing some I.C.C simulation game or something.