Economics Questions

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

limitgov — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 14:00:07 GMT

"I find the write-a-check-to-the-IRS argument to be a weak one on this issue."

I like this. Normally, someone like you, fountainhead, can only be found on a democraticunderground messageboard. in which case, noone would be allowed to debate you without being banned. I like having an open free forum where you are allowed to debate ideas like yours.

To me, its not a weak argument. I think the whole point of the argument is, when a rich man says "tax me more", he really doesn't mean it. Like people suggest, he could just cut a check to the US treasury. But he won't. What he really wants to happen is to have the government steal more of other people's money.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

h.k. — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 12:51:13 GMT

shackleford:

Don't forget about diminishing returns. When you take capital out of the private sector, assuming all things are equal, it shrinks. So, that leads to less revenue in absolute terms. A static analysis does not accurately represent economic reality.

However, raising taxes never reduces the deficit. Cutting spending is free and costs no one anything. Why aren't politicians pushing for that?

This is a very effective argument in my opinion. In real terms the economy generates less output. Not to mention rich people will just move. :]

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

No2statism — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:19:12 GMT

@Andris: I think that the system will crash before they can organize enough to do that. Warren Buffet is smart, but I think that his self control isn't high enough to do what he needs to do.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

Andris Birkmanis — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:04:41 GMT

What about they organize a company that forces them to do it? Something like a BDSM club, you know.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

No2statism — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 11:41:26 GMT

Some who advocate for higher taxes, but then don't do it don't do it because they aren't forced to. They want a central power to force them to do it... they can't do it on their own.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

Kakugo — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 08:15:53 GMT

"Soak the rich" really means "target the middle class". Really rich people have no big problems with high taxation. If everything fails they can always move their wealth to another country: differently from middle class their assets are very liquid and don't need to be liquidated to be moved around. Ingvar Kamprad (the IKEA owner) simply moved to Switzerland when taxes in Sweden became too high for his liking. Hundreds of Frenchmen are following in his footsteps now that the Socialists are back in power and angrier than ever. Short of closing the borders there's nothing governments can do. Oh, and don't worry: they'll get to that point eventually.

Now for the big shocker: even "soaking the whole population, from billionaires to beggars" doesn't work. Italy has raised pretty much every single tax and slashed deductions. Their deficit is still soaring, raising taxes has done nothing to solve their problems. As even Roubini had to admit last year "There's not enough money in the world to save Italy". Imagine the US, which owes much more money than Italy.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

Wheylous — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 03:58:22 GMT

Does the fact that everyone needs to donate to charity to make the largest impact mean that you yourself should not donate? No...

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

shackleford — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 03:45:20 GMT

Don't forget about diminishing returns. When you take capital out of the private sector, assuming all things are equal, it shrinks. So, that leads to less revenue in absolute terms. A static analysis does not accurately represent economic reality.

However, raising taxes never reduces the deficit. Cutting spending is free and costs no one anything. Why aren't politicians pushing for that?

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

Prime — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 03:02:11 GMT

fountainhead:

I think they make a stronger case when they use the "shared burden" argument that the rich have to help shoulder the tax burden to cut the deficit.

Don't let them make this case, becasue what they are advocating is a 2% reduction in the yearly deficit. Bring the math to the forefront. At the end of the day, all they have left is the moral argument. Don't let them off the hook.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

FascistSoup — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:56:11 GMT

The EPJ has a few nice comments on this: http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/11/a-couple-of-challenges-to-patriotic.html#comment-form

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

FascistSoup — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:52:39 GMT

Which rich people are doing that then? Serious question, btw. I'm not trying to be antagonistic.

>>Look up Patriotic Millionaires.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

fountainhead — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:49:50 GMT

lol, it was actually hearing Schiff's debate with that "patriotic millionaire" that made me think of this issue. I do agree that if they present it as a matter of morality, it's quite easy to catch them being hypocrites for not leading by example and donating to the the IRS. I think they make a stronger case when they use the "shared burden" argument that the rich have to help shoulder the tax burden to cut the deficit. Doesn't mean I think they're right. Just that it's a more effective argument on their part.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

Prime — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:47:59 GMT

Doing what? There are plenty of rich people arguing for congress to raise taxes on them. Warren Buffet, for one. Is that what you are asking?

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

Consumariat — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:46:12 GMT

Which rich people are doing that then? Serious question, btw. I'm not trying to be antagonistic.

Re: "Why don't you just write a check to the IRS?"

Prime — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 02:30:17 GMT

Another tactic I heard Schiff use today, if the person you are debating is actually rich enough to be effected by the taxes, then ask them if they hire an accountant and take deductions. If they do, not are they avoiding doing the "right" thing, they are in fact paying someone, an accountant, to find ways to minimize doing the "right" thing.