Economics Questions

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

Andris Birkmanis — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 05:41:28 GMT

Look, someone claiming there is not self is about as cogent as those who claim reality is not real

I take this as you expressing an opinion that "someone claiming there is not self is not cogent". I guess that depends on the definition of "self". If you mean that actions of every person are decided by something contained in the 3D volume of his body, then I am not sure what "cogent" proofs do you have. If you mean that actions of every person are decided by something... hmm, I can live with that :)

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

Anenome — Mon, 05 Nov 2012 01:36:25 GMT

Look, someone claiming there is not self is about as cogent as those who claim reality is not real, who claim that material things are not really solid, saying that wall over there is not real.

Yet all such philosophers exit the room through the door.

One claiming there's no self is like a man telling you he's not able to speak. It's self-refuting.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

liberation — Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:45:46 GMT

OK. Back to the economics topic.

In this short video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6a10UuQFOM) Tom Woods so clearly explains what was my original question. But Anenome did it as well in the thread.

I consider signing up to his Liberty Classroom.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

liberation — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 21:58:44 GMT

OK. Actually I wanted to talk about economics with you guys but we can talk about the "no self."

>> Autarchy: rule of the self by the self.

> OK, but there is no such thing as a self. Scientifically proven: http://www.burningtrue.com/2012/06/liberation-is-personal.html

Actually if you follow the link you can find three distinct scolars from the Western tradition who have exposed it and can tell it to you better than me. (Personally I didn't follow through with Hume yet only with VS Ramachandran and Thomas Metzinger. They have TED Talks up on YouTube.)

I can give you some links but I don't want to bore you. As a starter did you do a Google search for "no self?"

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

shackleford — Tue, 23 Oct 2012 18:54:05 GMT

Haha. There's no such thing as self.

Sure.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

Anenome — Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:22:02 GMT

By the 'self' I mean your body and the decision making capacity that it produces. Just because the mind is an intangible product of the body's physical existence doesn't mean the self does not exist. Destroy the brain, the organ that produces consciousness and identity, and your self is destroyed.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

liberation — Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:54:37 GMT

> Here's the Austrian economics wiki entry on deflation.

Thanks, interesting. Didn't know about that Wiki over the Mises Wiki. More competition, less synergy. I'll look more into deflation later.

> Money to invest is just capital. But productive capital are the things investments buy in order to produce goods in the economy. Thus productive capital

>are things like factories and machines to build things. Businesses are built physically out of productive capital. Even a trained worker can be considered

> productive human capital, if he has a relationship to the business, because the business has invested money in this worker and the relationship is

> symbiotic between them.

Thanks, understood!

> Look into the Rule of 72.

As the example shows (http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/ruleof72.asp) it's accurate at 36%. :))

OK, honestly I'm more like a trader than an investor but I was not wrong to find out you are an investor. :) That's why I asked.

> If you want a great book on why socialism cannot ever be as economically prosperous as capitalism, read "Knowledge and Decisions" by the

> always awesome Thomas Sowell.

It just came out on October the 1st, interesting: http://www.amazon.com/Knowledge-Decisions-Thomas-Sowell/dp/1470808811

Actually Tom Woods explained it in 5 minutes in his video http://vimeo.com/9857126 it's deep enough for the moment. :)

> Well, I think we're more interested in the question of bitcoin versus fiat money. Local currencies are small fry.

Local currencies are big in Europe, have a 100 year old tradition. Maybe in the US too? http://publicbankinginstitute.org/ I don't know. Do you see a trend in Bitcoin or digital gold replacing local currencies or they are a completely different beast?

> Money as debt tho, dunno about that, sounds bad.

I don't know if you are familiar with the work of anthropologist David Graeber he wrote a 500 page book about the history of debt. But you don't have to read the whole thing, you can find shorter interviews, talks and articles by him. His basic finding is debt was well before money so that's just the way the economy worked so far. Interesting.

> Autarchy: rule of the self by the self.

OK, but there is no such thing as a self. Scientifically proven: http://www.burningtrue.com/2012/06/liberation-is-personal.html

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

Anenome — Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:54:42 GMT

liberation:

Hi Anemone! ...I just found this article of adequate lenght about What You Should Know About Inflation: http://mises.org/daily/2914

However, it does not mention deflation. :(

Here's the Austrian economics wiki entry on deflation.

And here's another Austrian article on deflation:

"Here is an article by Philipp Bagus from the Quarterly Journal of Austrian Economics that takes on the Austrians for advocating some intervention to prevent deflation. The targets are Mises, Hayek, Rothbard, Sennholz, and others. In contrast, says Bagus, deflation is a wonderful thing, a quick path to financial and monetary reform."

Seems even Austrians have varying opinions on deflation, Mises was even in favor of zero inflation. But the point remains that if we had natural money in the form of gold, or uninflateable money like bitcoin, we'd experience continual normal and ordinary deflation. See the 2nd article I link there for Rothbard's take on why deflation has positive effects and the few circumstances when it doesn't (when government deflates).

liberation:
Do you think knowing too much about economics is the end all of all social sciences? Now I feel like I want to learn more about anthropology, geopolitics and philosophy.

Austrianism is inherently a polymath tradition, so such cross polinization will be useful to you. I study pretty much everything. Learn as broadly and as deeply as you can, it's very rewarding.

liberation:

You mention lot productive capital. What do you mean by this is, for example a Berkshire Hathaway / Warren Buffett investment? (Even if it gained less from 200-2012 than gold, which is not an investment per definition.)

Money to invest is just capital. But productive capital are the things investments buy in order to produce goods in the economy. Thus productive capital are things like factories and machines to build things. Businesses are built physically out of productive capital. Even a trained worker can be considered productive human capital, if he has a relationship to the business, because the business has invested money in this worker and the relationship is symbiotic between them.

liberation:
Sure, it's not an investment forum and you are not a certified investment advisor (who knows? - but there are this stupid rules regarding who can give advice, LOL) but what source can you recommend on investment advice? If you are anexpert on the topic(?). Thanks!

I was an investment advisor in the past when I held a series 6 & 63, not anymore however. Learned a lot in that capacity. As for investment advice, I'd say consult a professional, but in my non-professional opinion, I would just start making a habit of investing out of every paycheck right now while you do your homework.

If you're serious about investing, you'll need to do a year or two of reading and familiarization with the industry, but during that time it would be a good idea to put money monthly into a mutual fund, even if all you could spare was only $50 a month. Most families can spare say $200 a month. Look into the Rule of 72.

Investment's a broad topic tho. If you start investing now, you'll care enough to educate yourself and have funds to play with when you feel ready.

liberation:

And how do you know your utopia turns out to be a capitalist one and not a socialist one? :D Again, I refer back to myslef I feel like wanting to know more about other social sciences now, not only economics.

Here's the thing. A free society can tolerate socialist neighbors. But a socialist society generally has never been willing to tolerate capitalists within their midset.

So, if a free society comes about, what I know is that capitalism requires only one thing to exist: protection of basic property rights. After that, people will trade as a matter of course, and there's your capitalism. Capitalism arises ad hoc from a situation in which there is an absence of force. So, that's how I know.

If you want a great book on why socialism cannot ever be as economically prosperous as capitalism, read "Knowledge and Decisions" by the always awesome Thomas Sowell.

liberation:
What is your take on my other topic about

LETS, Local Exchange Trading Systems, local money, the Swiss WIR system, etc.

https://mises.org/community/forums/t/32043.aspx ?

I can't believe many so smart people here and only 1 answer so far (which I don't get, by the way). Sure, it's not Austrian economics but it's out there in the world and it works. And the Austrians have nothing to say about it?

Well, I think we're more interested in the question of bitcoin versus fiat money. Local currencies are small fry.

Thing about currencies are, the bigger they are the more useful they become, because of the "network effect." I have no real problem with regional currencies tho. There were many in the US before the Federal Reserve was formed.

Money as debt tho, dunno about that, sounds bad. And the idea of creating a local currency to increase the velocity of transactions and earn wealth that way ignores the source of wealth. Wealth comes not from the velocity of transactions in an economy, the source of wealth is production.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

liberation — Sun, 21 Oct 2012 11:37:18 GMT

Hi Anemone!

Thanks for your book recommendations! I heard about Economics in One Lesson. However I asked about deflation, not inflation. I just found this article of adequate lenght about What You Should Know About Inflation: http://mises.org/daily/2914

However, it does not mention deflation. :(

Do you think knowing too much about economics is the end all of all social sciences? Now I feel like I want to learn more about anthropology, geopolitics and philosophy.

You mention lot productive capital. What do you mean by this is, for example a Berkshire Hathaway / Warren Buffett investment? (Even if it gained less from 200-2012 than gold, which is not an investment per definition.)

Sure, it's not an investment forum and you are not a certified investment advisor (who knows? - but there are this stupid rules regarding who can give advice, LOL) but what source can you recommend on investment advice? If you are anexpert on the topic(?). Thanks!

And how do you know your utopia turns out to be a capitalist one and not a socialist one? :D Again, I refer mack to myslef I feel like wanting to know more about other social sciences now, not only economics.

Anenome, you are leraned man. What is your take on my other topic about

LETS, Local Exchange Trading Systems, local money, the Swiss WIR system, etc.

https://mises.org/community/forums/t/32043.aspx ?

I can't believe many so smart people here and only 1 answer so far (which I don't get, by the way). Sure, it's not Austrian economics but it's out there in the world and it works. And the Austrians have nothing to say about it?

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

shackleford — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:16:26 GMT

Anenome:

shackleford:

In a proper Austrian/free market economy, how should the money supply grow? Would it match the real demand for money? Does it even need to grow?

I'll answer this is terms of gold and bitcoin.

There is, in the universe and on our planet, a finite supply of gold.

Yet the value of gold will continue to fluctuate because the demand for gold will always change, and price is a function of both supply and demand together.

Same is true of bitcoin. In this respect they're both similar, with a finite supply. Also, in both cases, more is continually mined over time, but there is an ultimate limit.

Now, in a free market, with good money (gold / bitcoin) what we'd expect to see, and what we actually did see before fiat currencies came to dominate the world, was continual deflation, whereby money was constantly rising in value. The entire 19th century, for instance, experience deflation continually. People took pay cuts year after year and didn't complain, because their purchasing power either remained the same or improved despite the paycut, because of continual deflation. Money was becoming more value.

It becomes more valuable because each year people work. And by working their produce wealth. And thus real wealth increases every year by some value, yet the supply of gold/bitcoin remains the same. Also, more people enter the workforce continually.

So, demand for money continues to increase, and the amount of wealth in the world increases by trillions of dollars every year.

There's literally no reason why you'd want the money supply to remain at zero % inflation or deflation. You do not need to increase the money supply at all for an economy to function. The money supply is inflated currently purely because it's political advantageous to do so. End of story. It's not economically advantageous except to debtors--of which the US government is the largest! Oops. But that doesn't help the citizens.

What would happen in a free society is that demand for money grows and the money deflates, prices continually drop, and we cut money into smaller and smaller segments to cope with this deflation. Gold is essentially infinitely divisible, and bitcoin is too.

You could eventually have the equivalent of quadrillions of today's dollars one day packed into bitcoin, or gold, based on simply wealth production and demand for money.

tl;dr: we'd all be better off if money were left in the hands of the market.

Technically, gold is not infinitely divisible, but it may be in practical terms. Thanks for the response. All you do is move the decimal place over.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

Anenome — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:27:23 GMT

liberation:

Thanks for your detailed answer Anenome!

Actually where can I read more /see more of your deflation theory? A short video presentation os preferable to a long book. :) Thanks!

You're welcome :)

Inflation in theory is part of any basic econ text. The cause of it is very simple: printing more dollars. The effects of it are subtle, various, and pernicious.

Here's Hazlitt's book intro to econ:

Economics in One Lesson

If you keep delving into libertarianism you're going to need a grounding in Austrian economic theory. It's not as dry as you might think. And once you have your head right in economics, no competing theories of politics trying to justify interventions and state run solutions can tempt you, you'll know they won't result in plusses for people and, more importantly, you'll know why.

Hazlitt also wrote and entire book just on inflation, which I want to read :)

What You Should Know About Inflation

It is not merely that inflation breeds dishonesty in a nation. Inflation is itself a dishonest act on the part of government, and sets the example for private citizens. When modern governments inflate by increasing the paper-money supply, directly or indirectly, they do in principle what kings once did when they clipped coins. Diluting the money supply with paper is the moral equivalent of diluting the milk supply with water. Notwithstanding all the pious pretenses of governments that inflation is some evil visitation from without, inflation is practically always the result of deliberate governmental policy.

But videos? I have no idea. Um, maybe something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fv1DqIen28

liberation:
The common wisdom says deflation is the worst thing that can happen to an economy:

The worst thing is actually rapid change in the interest rate. If the rate is fairly steady, the economy can adapt. Although, inflation is worse than a deflationary policy for some of the reasons we talked about before. But rapid change paralyzes all business activity. Then your economy stops, or frantically tries to keep up somehow and it's chaos in no time.

liberation:
People will not buy stuff, they put their purchases later when prices will be even cheaper. Companies can't sell, there will be layoffs, unemplyment...

Well, inflation can have the opposite effect. People may want to buy right away to get the most value out of their currency. You see, when there's inflation, prices don't go down, they go up. So, if you're being paid at a job in fiat currency, you try to spend it asap, to get it out of dollar form so the inflation won't affect it anymore.

Anything you buy, say gold, will tend to rise in price along with the inflation and thus serve as a value store.

If you held on to that currency, the amount of anything it could buy would continually fall with the inflation, meaning its purchasing power is decreasing. If you could buy 100 bushels of wheat, with 5% inflation you now can only buy 95 bushels. So you are losing real wealth along with that purchasing power.

The reason companies will contract is because they always contract when there's considerable uncertainty. They put aside long-term plans for wait-and-see, if there's rapid change in the money supply. Also, inflation vs deflation can influence what companies do and how they might invest.

liberation:

You say the economy needs not full employment but full consumption. 2 things about this:

1. How should people survide who are unemployed and have no savings?

What I mean is, in an ideal world your real goal is full consumption.

We are not producing things to produce them! We are producing things in order to consume them! If we could consume them without producing them, we would! Man is a consumer. The only reason he produces at all is because he realizes he'd have much more to consume if he produes it first!

To actually achieve that in real life requires one thing: productive capital.

In real terms, that would mean that we would have to invent strong-artificial intelligence capable of replicating human intelligence. Then the hardware to run it would have to be cheap and ubiquitous. So, we're talking orders of magnitude more productive capital in the world and an invention that may not even prove to be possible ultimately. But if it is, and we build up enough productive capital, then there's no reason why we can't have machines producing everything we need and have human kind sit back and simply consume to their hearts' content.

How would people survive in this era? There would have to be a cultural shift towards intergenerational wealth transfer. Meaning that everyone would be trust-fund-babies, leaving fortunes to their kids. Everyone. Only the rich do it now, but there's no reason why the middle and poor classes could not as well. You'd just have middle and poor versions of complete unemployment. Maybe the truly rich would be able to jet around the solar system while the poor wouldn't be able to afford even a trip into orbit, meanwhile the middle-class are regularly visiting the moon and Titan. There's no reason why that vision is not one day achievable, as long as we continue to build productive capital.

liberation:
2. Maybe it's juts me but 'Im more like Warren Buffett: I mean he is quite well off guy but he lives rather frugally.

Good, good :) Saving is the mechanism by which productive capital is compounded.

liberation:
So you say gold is ALWAYS a good investment?

No, I'm saying it's always a good value store.

Gold can't, to my mind, be considered an investment. It's a value store. Now, if you expect tons of inflation then maybe the 'investment' terminology makes more sense. But when we talk about the price of gold, we're using the dollar as the "unit of account," that is we're counting the value of gold in terms of dollars.

So what happens if the dollar gets inflated? Well, the price of gold in dollars will continue to rise. But what if the Japanese Yen is not inflated during the same period? The yen will buy the exact same amount of gold it did previously, after the dollar has been inflated. And at no time does the purchasing power of the value that gold represents change.

True investments will actually give you more money, more value, more purchasing power. Gold will only retain it, generally. It's also possible for gold to become more scarce or more demanded, in which case its relative value increases compared to other goods and then its purchasing power really does rise, but we need to separate those two mechanisms in theory to understand what's going on.

liberation:
The conventional visdom says it's rather cyclical: first you are better off investing in the real economy (1980-2000), then in the second part gold catches up (2000-2012). (But what's now? The economy stopped. Gold stopped. That's a good question.)

I think gold rose lately due to increasing demand because people have been fearing inflation. But it's probably over-priced now and could easily bubble-pop.

liberation:
OK. I was thinking about it. Gold simply can't be so much more expensive over time even if it's scarce: it is just one of the commodities, there are others as well: silver, palladium, etc. Sure, the price can go up but I can't imagine it goes up by a magnitude or two.

Well, if money is your unit of account and the government inflates the currency by 100%, then the value of each dollar, in terms of purchasing power, would half at the very least, and the price of gold would double as a result. But its purchasing power would remain the same.

However, to escape inflation people would begin buying gold, and its value would rise in real terms too.

If the gov went crazy and just inflated the dollar wildly, the price of gold in terms of dollars could increase a million percent or more. It happened to the deutchsmark during WWII.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

liberation — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 00:39:47 GMT

OK. I was thinking about it. Gold simply can't be so much more expensive over time even if it's scarce: it is just one of the commodities, there are others as well: silver, palladium, etc. Sure, the price can go up but I can't imagine it goes up by a magnitude or two.

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

liberation — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 00:34:39 GMT

Btw. interesting tidbits about gold hoarding (deflation?) by film maker Paul Grignon (in the LETS thread):

http://mises.org/community/forums/p/32043/497878.aspx#497878

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

liberation — Fri, 19 Oct 2012 00:29:19 GMT

Thanks for your detailed answer Anenome!

Actually where can I read more /see more of your deflation theory? A short video presentation os preferable to a long book. :) Thanks!

The common wisdom says deflation is the worst thing that can happen to an economy:

People will not buy stuff, they put their purchases later when prices will be even cheaper. Companies can't sell, there will be layoffs, unemplyment...

OK, maybe it's not correct arguemnt.

You say the economy needs not full employment but full consumption. 2 things about this:

1. How should people survide who are unemployed and have no savings?

2. Maybe it's juts me but 'Im more like Warren Buffett: I mean he is quite well off guy but he lives rather frugally.

So you say gold is ALWAYS a good investment? The conventional visdom says it's rather cyclical: first you are better off investing in the real economy (1980-2000), then in the second part gold catches up (2000-2012). (But what's now? The economy stopped. Gold stopped. That's a good question.)

Re: Monetarist myth that 2-3% inflation is good for the economy? The Austrian view?

Tex2002ans — Wed, 17 Oct 2012 01:36:20 GMT

liberation:

Sorry. This quotation system seems not work for me.

Please read the Newbie Thread:

https://mises.org/Community/forums/t/23624.aspx