General

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

AJ — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:48:00 GMT

Wheylous:

so you guys do nothing and expect to change the world?

Have you ever read Why You Should Quit Politics on Lew Rockwell? It's pretty true. Not every liberty-minded person is a liberty activist.

One of the best articles on I've ever seen on LRC!

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Anenome — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:47:09 GMT

Andris Birkmanis:

But their paying into the system is much like the T-bill holder's buying a share of the ill-gotten goods of taxation receipts.

Not really. In most cases the payments were not voluntary. Even in capitalistic countries the payments of "social" taxes were forced, but in socialistic countries the people were not even given (most of) their money in the first place. The party told you where to work, how much to get for that, and even if you managed to save, "denominations" and defaults made sure noone had any wealth in cash or bonds by the time regimes crashed. And any kind of investment was illegal for most of the time.

Ok, I realize most people on the forum care about the US first, but as I said, even in the US the payments were not voluntary.

True enough, which makes a good case for liquidating state assets to pay them off for value stolen.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Andris Birkmanis — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:36:06 GMT

But their paying into the system is much like the T-bill holder's buying a share of the ill-gotten goods of taxation receipts.

Not really. In most cases the payments were not voluntary. Even in capitalistic countries the payments of "social" taxes were forced, but in socialistic countries the people were not even given (most of) their money in the first place. The party told you where to work, how much to get for that, and even if you managed to save, "denominations" and defaults made sure noone had any wealth in cash or bonds by the time regimes crashed. And any kind of investment was illegal for most of the time.

Ok, I realize most people on the forum care about the US first, but as I said, even in the US the payments were not voluntary.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

cab21 — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:36:04 GMT

wrote a amendment to the constituton

Article. VI.

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

change this to

all depts and contracts, including this constitution, are nullified, start over

will be interesting to see how people fare with renegotiated contracts or having to find other people to contract with. the invisable hand can work it's magic.

if the state just nullifies it existance, it will be a good test for free market private courts.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Anenome — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:04:08 GMT

Andris Birkmanis:

That would be a just and workable system.

It would be just going forward, but is unjust towards people who contributed a lot to the system during their lifetime, via taxes or otherwise, and now, when they became old or sick, hope to receive some of their contribution back. I do not think auctioning off all the govrnment's property will cover this debt (at least, not in all countries). One may say it's their fault to trust the government, but inmost cases they were forced to participate. Having said that, I do not know, what IS a just way out. Maybe there is none, as the original thieves already spent the stolen wealth, and are dead anyway.

It would be unjust perhaps in the sense that these people innocently and willingly trusted the promises of liars and thieves. But their paying into the system is much like the T-bill holder's buying a share of the ill-gotten goods of taxation receipts. By paying into the system, welfare and SS, etc., citizens expected to receive their share of ill-gotten goods in due course. Just as the government bond-holder expects to be repaid.

It would not be unjust to take away that unjust expectation built on an unjust mechanism, of taxation. Rothbard uses the same argument to show why nullifying public debt would not be unjust to bondholders--because they're essentially buying a share of the proceeds from robbery which is unjust in the first place. Similarly it would not be wrong to take away a man's slaves and not compensate him for lost property, as slavery is innately wrong.

But your point is taken and in actual practice we'd want to ease transition. If we ever got a chance to remake the system, it would make a good deal of sense to sell off government assets and try to pay back people for what they've paid into the system, especially those currently relying on that promise to pay and those just about to.

But from there, the system would have to be allowed to wither on the vine, and the unjust appropriation of funds via taxation ended once and for all, to be replaced by the voluntary system of mutual aid I laid out previously.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Andris Birkmanis — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 08:32:30 GMT

That would be a just and workable system.

It would be just going forward, but is unjust towards people who contributed a lot to the system during their lifetime, via taxes or otherwise, and now, when they became old or sick, hope to receive some of their contribution back. I do not think auctioning off all the govrnment's property will cover this debt (at least, not in all countries). One may say it's their fault to trust the government, but inmost cases they were forced to participate. Having said that, I do not know, what IS a just way out. Maybe there is none, as the original thieves already spent the stolen wealth, and are dead anyway.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Anenome — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 06:26:34 GMT

cab21:

people that don't want to pay would not longer pay under the event of stopping all opperation imediatly. any contract with government involvement can be instantly nullified.

The question of how one would transition away from our current system is completely different from whether our current system is just.

Of course simply ending welfare would cause mass disruption. That might not be the way to go, even if it would be the most ethical way.

Probably, more likley, you'd let people take whatever voluntary option they wanted. Those who wanted to remain giving and receiving benefits could be sectioned off into a private mutual aid company, of national scale perhaps, and live within the confines of that system, using voluntary payments.

And those who want to opt out and stop being forced to pay would be able to do that, without any guarantee of mutual aid.

That would be a just and workable system.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

cab21 — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 05:46:04 GMT

people that don't want to pay would not longer pay under the event of stopping all opperation imediatly. any contract with government involvement can be instantly nullified.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Wheylous — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:25:48 GMT

Did cab21 go back to trolling? :P

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Bert — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:24:27 GMT

so you guys do nothing and expect to change the world?

No, I only do something in my own self interest and expect to only change what's in my own self interest.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Anenome — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:16:21 GMT

Wheylous:

so you guys do nothing and expect to change the world?

Have you ever read Why You Should Quit Politics on Lew Rockwell? It's pretty true. Not every liberty-minded person is a liberty activist.

That's one of the best articles I've read in a long time, awesome :)

cab21:

i wrote a letter on why government funded hosbitals should should shut down and stop payments and life support and let current clients die

Har har. The question isn't whether people should be allowed to die but whether it's ethical to force others to pay for maintenance of others lives.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

SkepticalMetal — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:45:59 GMT

Right now I'm writing a short story that I plan on publishing in a literary magazine. The story is somewhat libertarian-themed. I plan on submitting it to the New Yorker.

EDIT

I'm also working on a novel for the 50,000 words contest, that is, again, somewhat libertarian-themed.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

cab21 — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:45:29 GMT

i wrote a letter on why government funded hosbitals should should shut down and stop payments and life support and let current clients die

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

Anenome — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:04:15 GMT

@ Grant: Need to get that on film, yo.

Re: What have you done for liberty today?

QuisCustodiet — Sun, 18 Nov 2012 02:50:39 GMT

Great job, Grant!