General

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Minarchist — Mon, 29 Oct 2012 02:04:30 GMT

fakename:
The only thing that I don't like about this strategy is that it requires approval from the very people who, being our ideological and ethical opposites, are the very last people from whom we should want approval.

In what sense does the strategy require their approval?

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Andrew Cain — Sun, 28 Oct 2012 07:34:28 GMT

This stuff worries me. Look at the title "A Message from the Milita TO CIVILIANS." Did I miss something? Are these individuals not civilians? And it's "Hey we're not nutty, we're just like you!" As if we all have full BDU's with assault gear AND A LOADED AR15 THAT WE CARRY ONTO YOUTUBE IN ORDER TO SHOW HOW WE'RE NOT CRAZY! You're message to others is done in battle dress with battleweapons loaded? I see where this is going and it sucks. It reminds me of that quote from Bandits:

"Terry You know the hardest thing about being smart?
Joe: No.
Terry: I always pretty much know what's gonna happen next. There's no suspense."

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Clayton — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:00:53 GMT

(Please visit the site to view this media)

"Intended as theatre" (aka "It's staged!"):

(Please visit the site to view this media)

"There are more than just us" (aka "I don't have any particular reason for being here but do come join us!"):

(Please visit the site to view this media)

"We haven't seen Oakland PD all day" ... aka the cops arrive with the provocateurs:

(Please visit the site to view this media)

Wag The Dog!

Clayton -

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

fakename — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 17:41:26 GMT

Reply to Minarchist:

The only thing that I don't like about this strategy is that it requires approval from the very people who, being our ideological and ethical opposites, are the very last people from whom we should want approval. I would think there would be something very wrong, for instance, if the liberty movement became favored by the rockefellers or the MSM.

Also, as far as I know, we want revolutionary change and historically changing a state's constitution usually implies (accidentally or essentially) some sort of combat.

Only in the case of the nazis (post-putsch) was a revolution accomplished with minimal bloodshed. Their party reached their ends not so much by recieving approval from the mainstream, but rather by manipulating the weaknesses of the weimar constitution behind which, the mainstream interests protected themselves. Unfortunately the american constitution is too strong and historically going against it has implied succession and civil war. Not that I'm calling for such but, IMO, any revolutionary movement will have to step into the role of the old confederacy, in so much as institutions and peoples tend to repeat and are bound to, their histories.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Anenome — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 17:33:06 GMT

Someone needs to draft up a "Declaration of Individual Independence". Wheylous?

I'm working on one.

They released one at Libertopia as well, but I find it deeply unsatisfying.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Malachi — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:43:44 GMT

How is it possible that a piece of dung is posting on tne internets? Or did you mean figuratively? In that case how could something quantitative like an iq test make such a qualitative and literary asessment?

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

No2statism — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:29:10 GMT

@ Malachi: Thank you for the offer: ) I agree that they are worthless, but they just helped prove, among other things, that I'm a piece of dung.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Malachi — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 13:58:32 GMT

Dude, it sounds like you need to go take a walk in the park. Forget about intelligence tests, they are nearly worthless. If you dont believe me I can establish this for you. Please tell me your head doctors are in private practice, and not employed by the government.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

No2statism — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 13:51:58 GMT

@ Groucho : Those are good suggestions and i am on abilify and everything else as prescribed, but I don't like illusions (ingesting objects that you don't want to take doesn't make you better than how you were born) and I've realized none of my friends last forever. Perhaps electroshock therapy would work, but then I'd be at more risk and there would no point in it.

Really, I blame the federal govt for making it so assisted suicide would be looked down and hard to achieve. I also don't like how the govt has made it so hard for me to get something that I know would kill me... I'm know that my skull is too dense for the average firearm to work.

I really want to die, but I'm worried that I wind up botching the suicide attempt considering what I have access to. I don't like my life and the people I liked won't like me forever.

If I had just been told that I wasn't bright by everyone my whole life, then there would've been no problem. A big factor is that my mom is not intelligent so she took an achievement test (or maybe a verbal ratio IQ) to mean that my IQ was 126 and always told me my IQ was 126. It wasn't because I'm not bright overall. Being told I'm better than average since as long as I can remember and being treated as if I were was a bad idea. Of course, I had doubts my IQ being 126, but I thought I was bright more than I am retarded.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Malachi — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 13:10:08 GMT

Every member of the productive class is struggling under the weight of the government... but 99% of them still get up and go to work every day and drive the speed limit. And more of those people than you might think actually resent the control and intuitively sense that the burden of government is unfair. But they understand that the bills have to be paid no matter what. The packages have to be delivered no matter what. And so on. This is how everyone's kids are fed dinner at the end of the day. And here you have a bunch of apes jumping around in a protest march or packing heat and wearing fatigues and pretending they're going to "resist" the government. So, you end up alienating the very people whose interests you imagine you are standing up for. They might even sense that you have a point but the way you're going about it is completely wrong.

thanks for this, Clayton. I remember trying to explain this to someone who is dear to me and the response was "fuck bills." From someone whose bills are all paid by other people. So, this idea of a standoff is appealing to a lot of people.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Andris Birkmanis — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:22:16 GMT

so what are you supposed to do if you are between 17 and 45 and able bodied, and not in the armed forces? Become disabled?

There are also options of changing gender or citizenship.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Groucho — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:45:06 GMT

No2statism:
I also worry that torture will lead to myself being controlled or even being turned into a King Kong... that would cause some serious damage and I hope it won't happen but it's out of my control.

I'd consider going back on the Abilify if I were you.

There's plenty of reasons to look forward to the future. If one thing has always been true about politics in the US is that it swngs back and forth like a pendulum, from "liberal" to "conservative" (in a social sense). What's going on now is not much different than the 'McCarthyism' of the early 1950's that's being sustained by war nationalism - which simply can't continue because we're broke.

What will the 21st Cebtury versions of the 60's and 70's be like when the pedulum swings back? Wouldn't you like to see government sink back into social disdain again - and into eventual irrelevance?

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

No2statism — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:43:08 GMT

As Liberty Student said, the state IS an illusion and we need to live in our heads logically if we hope to have much happiness. Some people have no souls, some have good souls, some have bad souls and all we can really hope for is that our descendants will live in a world of peace and liberty.

This is yet another good thread by Clayton and the miltia ads have even infiltrated facebook.

@ Clayton: You may have already been aware of this [EDIT: I read more of your OP and now saw that you were when you mentioned mediocre people]... but the only problem is the fact that agents of the state could trick people into joining or that they could force into joining. For example, someone could knock my ass out and then drug me even more, put a chip in my head, and I'd wake up really in a miltia. That's what I'm worried about most honestly and it's a big reason as to why I want to die really soon before I do anymore damage. It has long bothered me that the State has had so much technology. The state can only do bad with technology and that's what Jefferson feared with a forced industrial economy.

I also worry that torture will lead to myself being controlled or even being turned into a King Kong... that would cause some serious damage and I hope it won't happen but it's out of my control.

I should've never been born.

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Clayton — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:40:46 GMT

Agreed. But I guess what I'm saying is that I think that even folks who frequent these forums do not fully appreciate the fact that individual, mental secession is the root foundation of the whole enterprise. Organizations like LvMI are helping get the message out but it's only the act of one more individual saying "I no longer give the assent of my conscience to these government dictates" that will result in change. Politicians can't do it. Organizations can't do it. Only lots of people changing their minds can do it. The rest is just details (strategy).

I don't want to come across like a zealot but what I'm trying to say is that people who are engaged in the FSP or Seasteading or whatever are wasting their energy, in my opinion. To the extent that they have mentally seceded and are teaching others to do likewise by their actions and message, they are contributing to the only winning strategy. But a great deal of their energy is diverted into "de-municipalizing the garbage collectors" - ancillary goals that, even if achieved, contribute nothing beyond themselves.

Another thing is that there is a tendency in the movement to suppose that there is some kind of "collective action problem" associated with liberty... as if we have to build some kind of critical mass before we can be free. No, the moment you tell yourself "I no longer assent. I hereby emancipate myself of government statutes" you are at once freed, that is, you are freer than you were the moment before. Before, you were thinking that you would obey the government's statutes because "you should" - you were imprisoning yourself, just like everyone else does. But once you stop imprisoning yourself, the world opens up. Every day is a new opportunity to go out and live your life as you see fit, to hell with government. Government is just a moderately dangerous and mostly incompetent hamperer of life. You begin consciously aiming to outwit the government, that is, navigate around its "rules" - it's like having a radar/laser detector but for everything in your life.

So, there is no collective action problem, but the momentum only grows as more and more people jump on board. The more people who are freed of the bondage of their own conscience to government dictates, the more opportunities you have. And no, I don't just mean "agorism" or "cipherpunk" which are focused on starting with the hardest things (e.g. drugs) first... which is completely backwards. We need as many people as possible breaking as many rules in broad daylight as possible... rules that the government can't win the political battle required to enforce them. Marijuana is approaching the tipping point here, but I'm thinking that copyright "piracy" is a big soft spot. Of course, this is just entertainment, so it's never going to make a dent. Another area is just plain old cash economy... buy a small pickup truck, log on to Craigslist and just start peddling. I think that cash peddling is a major threat to the status quo. This helps weaken Leviathan in the most direct possible manner but, more importantly, it is an effective practical conduit for spreading the message. "Practical anarchism", as it were. Of course, prudence is always the watch-word.

I guess I'm trying to agree with you and say that we need to make sure we keep it in the forefront that the goal is to change minds and that this is more powerful than any other strategy. It is, as you said, a proven strategy, the only strategy.

Clayton -

Re: Do not get involved with the militia

Minarchist — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:07:05 GMT

Armed resistance is suicide, agorism has merit but I don't think it can do the job alone; what we need are more and stronger civil organizations such as LvMI or Campaign for Liberty which are devoted to educating people and/or gradually infiltrating the important institutions of our society: government, academia, the churches, etc. After all, that's how our opponents took power. It's a proven method. What should you do personally (other than continue to educate yourself)? Well, we need libertarian teachers, professors, clergymen, journalists, lawyers, doctors, and politicians to replace the establishment-collaborators currently occupying those influential positions in society, as well as wealthy libertarians of whatever profession or trade to finance all this. Have at it.