General

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Groucho — Sat, 27 Oct 2012 01:08:00 GMT

Doug Stanhope - an pro-liberty anti-state comedian.

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Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Neodoxy — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 03:54:27 GMT

"When I said, "along the lines of 'you don't get it'," I was refering to the comment about my acceptance of a strawman, which is evident that his implication was that I didn't get what Rand was really saying. All I said is that, by not giving explanation, I am left to infer that I must read her fiction for myself (or at least consult an authority)."

Thank you for the explanation.

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Aristophanes — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 03:31:47 GMT

It might be good if you started by showing who said "you don't get it". ~~You introduced that concept out of nowhere.~~

I said along the lines of it.

You were originally seemed to indicate that trying to get people to read Atlas shrugged was not a good way to get them introduced to the topic, yet I see no one here trying to do that, all that has been said in favor of the book is that it is a good book.

My "seeming indication" was just in your mind. I didn't say anyone was. I merely added to my point, I wasn't even arguing with you (people can say things that don't need "argued" with).

When I said, "along the lines of 'you don't get it'," I was refering to the comment about my acceptance of a strawman, which is evident that his implication was that I didn't get what Rand was really saying. All I said is that, by not giving explanation, I am left to infer that I must read her fiction for myself (or at least consult an authority).

It may be a good book. I am not contesting that.

So what are you talking about? Are you talking about what you said and your arguments were criticized?

My aversion is to get you to read between the lines. Exo you've got. Eso you don't; same with "gotlucky: the shamed."

And to be honest, the most prescient criticims I made were addressed by one person. She cohorted with pseudo-libertarian, rhetorical, ideology and the most infamous family in modern banking. Seriosuly, the family that eventually loaned money to the British Monarch. Is it any wonder why people think the things they do about libertarianism? With that kind of a mouthpiece for it?

If you admit that you haven't read Rand then why don't you just accept that you're wrong?

I have read Rand, just not her fiction...

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

gotlucky — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 02:55:57 GMT

Aristophanes:

Fucking read, kid.

There you go again.

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Neodoxy — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 02:19:09 GMT

"This is what I'll do for you"

You really are too kind.

It might be good if you started by showing who said "you don't get it". You introduced that concept out of nowhere. You were originally seemed to indicate that trying to get people to read Atlas shrugged was not a good way to get them introduced to the topic, yet I see no one here trying to do that, all that has been said in favor of the book is that it is a good book.

So what are you talking about? Are you talking about what you said and your arguments were criticized? If you admit that you haven't read Rand then why don't you just accept that you're wrong?

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Aristophanes — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 02:00:09 GMT

This is what I'll do for you:

No, that's the caricature and strawman of what her works were saying. You do everyone a disservice by accepting those strawmen.

"There are less polemic pseudo-libertarian writers to promote rather than 'demanding' that the majority of people read 1000 pages (two choices on this) of Rand's book to 'really get it.'"

I don't think anyone here is doing that.

Mmmm. It is an implicit criterion in the head of everyone who says something along the lines of, "you don't get it," but never gives any explanation (not that I need or want one here).

I don't know how you could not understand that.

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Neodoxy — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 01:51:51 GMT

"Fucking read, kid."

Fucking write, pops.

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

RagnarD — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 01:07:54 GMT

Thanks for all the suggestions, I just now got enough time off work to start watching/reading them.

As to the Rand discussion, as I remember her antagonism to libertarianism centered around her feeling that "They" plagiarized her political philosophy while discarding the morality, epistemology and metaphysics behind it. That's as I remember it, not my position (trying to keep out of the debate).

I can definitely see not making it through Atlas Shrugged, if I hadn't been so blown away by Anthem I doubt I would have ever made it through the slow intro (initial 200-250 pages) of Atlas Shrugged.

The main thing I think I gained from Rand that I'm not sure I would otherwise have attained was a sense of the integration of ideas, I viewed the world with completely different eyes after reading a lot of her work. She took me from seeing the world with a childs eyes as a disconnected mess, to seeing how everything is interrelated. I don't get the sense that I would have achieved that through anything else that I've read. I'm curious whether anyone has gotten deeply into Rand after already being knowledgable about libertarianism and if they attain a heightened sense of integration from her?

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Aristophanes — Fri, 26 Oct 2012 01:03:06 GMT

"Mmmm. It is an implicit criterion in the head of everyone who says something along the lines of, "you don't get it," but never gives any explanation (not that I need or want one here)."

What?

Fucking read, kid.

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Clayton — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:55:39 GMT

:-P

Clayton -

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Neodoxy — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:31:25 GMT

"Mmmm. It is an implicit criterion in the head of everyone who says something along the lines of, "you don't get it," but never gives any explanation (not that I need or want one here)."

What?

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

SkepticalMetal — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:30:54 GMT

Wow, I guess in my mind I pictured everybody on this forum being American, for some reason.

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Aristippus — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:28:53 GMT

Well, she didn't purposefully make the endorsement you're suggesting, since she claimed her principles prevented her from doing the very thing you say her philosophy is supposed to support. I just thought I should point that out, I don't feel a need to defend her. I haven't even read any of her works, not having felt the need due to the fact that I had already read Hazlitt, Hayek, Mises, Rothbard etc. before having heard of her (I'm not American).

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Aristophanes — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:28:43 GMT

"There are less polemic pseudo-libertarian writers to promote rather than 'demanding' that the majority of people read 1000 pages (two choices on this) of Rand's book to 'really get it.'"

I don't think anyone here is doing that.

Mmmm. It is an implicit criterion in the head of everyone who says something along the lines of, "you don't get it," but never gives any explanation (not that I need or want one here).

Re: Most beautiful presentations of Liberty.

Neodoxy — Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:27:58 GMT

Skeptic,

Really? I'm surprised that you disliked her writing style that much. I found her style fairly appealing although the antithesis of the world "brief" should be "Atlas Shrugged". I do recommend the audio book more than the novel, however.