General

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

John James — Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:57:37 GMT

I was actually thinking about reviving this thread myself. I would really like to see at least one of these trees finished.

But to address your question, if might help if you actually read the book before calling it one of the most important works of the 20th century. I think if you actually tried, you'd find the answer to you question on whether it's an advanced text or not.

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

Harry Harper — Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:35:29 GMT

HUMAN ACTION is the most important work of economic or social theory written in the twentieth century. It is also the most important defense of laissez faire capitalism ever written. It is put into the advanced section of the Liberal Reading List...

Is it really too difficult to read that you should be at advanced level?

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

StateExempt — Thu, 19 Aug 2010 23:12:47 GMT

You've got an excellent idea in place! I've had some experiences in converting statists to minarchists - and am now working on a primer text for converting Minarchists.

I notice that before such a conversation can even take place, some knowledge is required about where someone falls politically. Quiz2d.com is a good site for finding out how much and what kind of statist someone is.

For Liberals, it's simply a matter pointing out how market regulations create more problems then they solve, and that tax-funded operations are simply legitimized theft and inefficientcy. Conservatives may need some brushing up on the market system, but I notice that what is more important is showing that people will behave one way or another regardless of what the law is.

Bringing someone from Minarchy to Anarcho-Capitalism requires that you show that there is literally nothing whatsoever that the government does that market-based institutions cannot produce on thier own. Perhaps some information on how Somalia has improved without a state might be a little persuasive?

At any rate, all Minarchists should read the following article:

http://mises.org/daily/1855

And to gain some trust in the power of the Austrian school, this video speaks for itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2I0QN-FYkpw

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

Panarchy — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 04:24:17 GMT

filc:
I have essentially had to put this project down in favor of other more exciting ones!

Panarchy I am wondering if it would make more sense to take advantage of the Mises Stack exchange which is already out there?

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/14682.aspx http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/16713.aspx I only recently found Mises Stack Exchange. It's good, but not exactly what I'm looking for. Also, the design isn't that great. However, as a tree, implementing your idea with my design, we could create quite a good project

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

Joe — Sun, 20 Jun 2010 02:25:23 GMT

here was my post on a sort of similar idea:

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/16898.aspx

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

filc — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 17:19:40 GMT

I have essentially had to put this project down in favor of other more exciting ones!

Panarchy I am wondering if it would make more sense to take advantage of the Mises Stack exchange which is already out there?

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

Panarchy — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 05:27:07 GMT

After reading this topic, I have an idea that may be viable, to link our two ideas together;

[REQUEST] www.Mises.org Knowledge-base

To get specific, having a nice, searchable list of topics on a well formatted [mises] subdomain, with links, for instanced, down to Taxation. Then from there to be able to pick [from a design point of view, top-centre or top-right would be the best place] previous education level.

This is the aforementioned idea;

The [1] signifies a footnote || endnote, which could be furthered to more than just the book the quote is from, but also to a list of recommended books [for that skill-level].

From there, it wouldn't be too hard to have many pages of topics with questions [& answers], and even to have the option to show it in Tree format. The Visual Theasurus did that last part nicely, so why can't we?

Maybe only the theme is what you can take from the idea, however it would be worth thinking about linking the idea further.

Good Luck on getting this project underway,

Chip D. Panarchy

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

filc — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 07:43:15 GMT

The intent originally was to have an education learning/path/tree geared to each political side, not just liberals alone. I had hoped to construct somethign that would reach many, not just conservatives.

Seeing how drawing conservatives can sometimes be naturally easier I wanted to take the more difficult route first. That said I would say many liberals haven't the first idea as to what modern liberalism is or means, and libertarianism is or means anyways.

Any how the project hasn't picked up much interest.

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

IDigSluts_ky — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 07:18:17 GMT

I'd like some comments on the first few books. Are these appropriate angles to take for a liberal getting introduced to these idea's? What if we switched animal farm for 1984. I feel that some liberal's immediately dismiss Animal Farm as they consider it 'not factually correct' despite the fact it's a fiction. 1984 seems to be a bit further down the fiction line by not representing a specific time in history unlike animal farm.

I think your stance on liberals is disingenuous. As a libertarian, many liberals despise me just as much as conservatives.

If anything, libertarians have more to gain with the Republican Party than the Democratic Party, but we must not jeopardize principles. Therefore, you must be winning over Republicans, not liberals. Winning over social conservatives, pro-liberty, fiscal discipline conservatives is not easy.

Anyways, I digressed.

The Law and Chapter 19 from Locke's The Second Treatise Civil Government are classics and High School level.

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html

http://www.constitution.org/jl/2ndtr19.htm

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

gussosa — Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:12:08 GMT

I am writing a book that analyzes Marx as a classic liberal (as he was) in order to convert Marxists using their own premises. It isn't finished yet, but in the meanwhile you may send those leftists to read "The German Ideology", one of Marx's early books. Then present them the essay written by Hoppe on Marxism without polylogism, or Schumpeter's theory of classes.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/

http://blog.mises.org/archives/010560.asp

With some tact you could show them that after arriving to London Marx changed from a scholar into a politician. He wasn't looking for wisdom any more, but looking for power. Previously he had say that socialist theory must denounce injustice and try to erase it, not try to build magnificent utopian systems. When he started pursuing power using workers as his platform/lobby, he started his construction of an utopic communist system.

We believe in class war too, but we got it right. That should be enough to get the guy on track.

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

filc — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 18:21:27 GMT

Here is a basic example of what I wanted to accomplish. This tree is specifically for monetary theory.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/rp-reading-list.html

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

MB — Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:18:08 GMT

Would anyone like to give a recommended reading list for reading Mises.

Ie, a suggested order for reading his works (read x first; read y before reading w). Maybe also suggestions to read certain works by others before tackling certain works by Mises.

While I have several of his works, the only one I've read totally was "Planning for Freedom". I have been recently getting many of his other works, and want to start tackling them, but not sure which ones I should read before others.

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

filc — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:54:56 GMT

Draft of a Liberal Reading List.

Introduction and Beggining

Roderick T Long's Seminars
Animal Farm - Orwell
Why Government Doesn't Work -Harry Browne
(Perhaps some literature specifically addressing extreme altruism and welfare concepts at a philosophical level, not necessarily at an economic level))
The Diamond Age and Cryptonomicon

Intermediate

Capitalism and Freedom - M. Friedman
The Road To Serfdom -Hayek
Economics in One Lesson -Hazlitt
That which is seend, and that which is not seen -Bastiat
Constitution of Liberty - Hayek

Advanced

Fatal Conceit - Hayek
Socialism -LVM
Human Action -LVM
Democracy: The God that Failed -HHH
No Treason - Spooner
What Has Gov't Done To Our money - Rothbard
Power and Market - Rorhbard
For A New Liberty -Rothbard
The State - Oppenhiemer
Chaos Theory -Robert Murphy
Lysander Spooner Let's Abolish Government, Natural Law
Ludwig von Mises Liberalism, Marxism Unmasked, Theory and History
Defending the Undefendable - Walter Block

Other or Final

Enterprise Of Law - Bruce L. Benson (Where should I place this?)

I'd like some comments on the first few books. Are these appropriate angles to take for a liberal getting introduced to these idea's? What if we switched animal farm for 1984. I feel that some liberal's immediately dismiss Animal Farm as they consider it 'not factually correct' despite the fact it's a fiction. 1984 seems to be a bit further down the fiction line by not representing a specific time in history unlike animal farm.

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

filc — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 19:35:59 GMT

Update!

We finally have a rudimentary liberal reading list that needs to be hammered down over here.

However I am reluctant to move too far forward until we somewhat agree on a scope for this project. I think if we can get something more defined more people could participate and attempt to make their own tree specifically catered to an ideological viewpoint.

Not wanting to keep the project too strict I think it's best if we just agree on a set of guidelines at tree can attempt to follow as best as possible.

So here is what I have so far.

3 Catagories

Introduction

1-5 recomended books, articles, videos, seminars, lectures, ect.... (Fiction may serve well here at the beginning section)
Section 1 will more or less be addressing topics of interest that may correlate with the persons ideological viewpoint while still being thought provoking and challenging the reader in such ways.

The Introduction section should provide literature which will appeal to the reader but at the same time, in disguise, be introducing them to more minarchist/libertarian viewpoints. My thoughts on this are to in a way kind of trick them or slowly bring them towards freedom. With that said the introductory books may not necessarily be a clear representation of libertarianism, minarchism, or anarchy. We just need to find the best books to get the reader interested in philosophy and economics. The intermediate section is there for establishing foundational topics, it is our hope that if they progress past the introductory stage that they will be interested in that material.

Intermediate

History
- 1-3 Historical relevant recomendations
Philosophy
- Building on the Introduction
- Really establish the foundational philosophical viewpoints here. Stuff like the NAP, Private Property, ect...
Economics
- Again this is an extension into detail from the Introduction section. Here we can explain some of the mechanics of Economics. We should hope that at this point the reader understands that Economics is both relevant but also has developed a level of interest because so.

The intermediate section may end up with several sub-categories or it may not, depending on the reading material you provide. Some books encompass all 3 sub-catagores. This is really just up to our digressions. We just want to design as best we can to really establish important foundational principles like the NAP, Private Property, ect. We may introduce concepts like the ABCT but not get too overly detailed.

It may end up being that the intermediate section is the largest section. Thats fine as there is much ground to cover.

Advanced

Advance topics I imagine can vary. Here we can really attack various forms of statism.
If a reader gets this far they need to comprehend our underlying principles otherwise as always they will shrug off anti-statism as a form of arbitrary nihilism. If the reader gets to this point and just thinks we are cranks than our Introduction and Intermediate section is lacking.

The advanced section can really be an all out assault on various forms of minarchism. This is where you can introduce some fun stuff without fear of the reader missing the point. The advanced section really should be the most thought provoking at all finally tearing down the walls that the reader was raised on. If in this section we at least cannot convert someone to all out anti-statism than at least we may have created a minarchist or anarchist sympathizer.

Scope

This project should not be designed or intended into punching out expert economists left and right. It's fundamental goal is to stear people in our direction and understanding of freedom. In the broad scope of things the ADvanced section for all intensive purposes can still be a begginers section in the broad scheme of things. The idea is that after they have read all of the topics they can choose for themselves where next to take their reading to. Some folks would rather read up on philosophy rather than economics. Past the advanced stage they can be left to do that on their own.

This project should not be designed as a full blown lesson plan educating every detail of the anarchist point of view. So the scope needs to be limited.

Material

While books are obviously of greatest value due to their immense amount of information some people need visual supplements so I encourage each tree to use things like video's and other material as augmentations to the tree.

comments please

Re: Reading/Education/Document/Debate Tree

K.C. Farmer — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 16:49:39 GMT

Definition in scope is essential. One person's term for "advanced" will be different than others.

I do see a potential pitfall. Human Action alone would be a challenge for beginners to grasp, but contains the central arguments that support our position. Other than references, which are provided in other books, Human Action may be in the advanced category. A lot of Rothbard's material probably fits in the same category, although his writing style is a bit easier for the beginner to pick up. Where you place these books will tell us a lot on what the scope of the project should be. Perhaps the entire point is to bring the novice from knowing nothing to the point where he can read Human Action and many of the good books out there.

The other option is to use the Study Guide for Human Action and the Study Guide for Man, Economy and State with Power and Market, but even these may be intermediate level books and not the first thing a novice should pick up.

Good basic beginner stuff is Economics in One Easy Lesson; I, Pencil; and An Introduction to Austrian Economics. A good book on reasoning and logic would be nice too.