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How are Unions viewed by libertarians?

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How are Unions viewed by libertarians?

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Novus Zarathustra posted on Fri, Sep 11 2009 12:41 PM

I was surprised to find out that Libertarians oppose unions. I do agree that Unions strip a lot of economic freedom from business' but they are formed by people, not by the law or government. They often prevent employers being abusive, or unfair however.

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DanielMuff replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 12:46 PM

Democracy for Breakfast:

I was surprised to find out that Libertarians oppose unions. I do agree that Unions strip a lot of economic freedom from business' but they are formed by people, not by the law or government. They often prevent employers being abusive, or unfair however.

It is illegal to fire an employee for joing a union, so they are protected by government. What does it mean for an employer to be abusive or unfair?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Saan replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 12:53 PM

Government protected unions, yes.  Voluntary Unions, no.

 Criminals, there ought to be a law.

Criminals there ought to be a whole lot more.   Bon Scott.

 

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Novus Zarathustra replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 1:03 PM

Saan:

Government protected unions, yes.  Voluntary Unions, no.

Is the UFT Government protected?

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DanielMuff replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 1:05 PM

Democracy for Breakfast:

Saan:

Government protected unions, yes.  Voluntary Unions, no.

Is the UFT Government protected?

How is it not?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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Andrew replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 1:39 PM

I can't understand why liberals are crying about the low percent of unions. To me that would seem like a good thing.....unions were started to hike wages and stop abusive treatment of labor. The less there are, the better the labor movement is doing right?

Obama and everyone else just want more unions for more coercive power to pass legislation that destroys businesses. Some unions seem fine like steelworkers, but a secretary's union.....you're kidding me

Democracy is nothing more than replacing bullets with ballots

 

If Pro is the opposite of Con. What is the opposite of Progress?

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DanielMuff replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 1:50 PM

Andrew:

I can't understand why liberals are crying about the low percent of unions. To me that would seem like a good thing.....unions were started to hike wages and stop abusive treatment of labor. The less there are, the better the labor movement is doing right?

Obama and everyone else just want more unions for more coercive power to pass legislation that destroys businesses. Some unions seem fine like steelworkers, but a secretary's union.....you're kidding me

Why is a steelworkers union fine?

To paraphrase Marc Faber: We're all doomed, but that doesn't mean that we can't make money in the process.
Rabbi Lapin: "Let's make bricks!"
Stephan Kinsella: "Say you and I both want to make a German chocolate cake."

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KimberCT replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 1:55 PM

What about how most unions violate both private property and the nonaggression axiom... the core tenants of libertarianism?

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liberty student replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 3:00 PM

Read this

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/10317.aspx

If employers are abusive, that is illegal.  If employers are unfair, that is tough luck.

Unions are mechanisms of exclusion, that traditionally relied on violence to gain privilege, (violence against the firm, and non-union workers competing for jobs) and now rely on government law (violence) to excluse other workers, limit labour competition and bully employers.

Yes, people can form unions voluntarily.  But a union's bargaining power is tied to privilege which is a statist tactic, not exclusion (via property) which is a libertarian tactic.

A libertarian should be obliged to utilize Bastiat's seen and unseen analysis regularly. We see what the unions provide for union workers.  Now what are the costs?  Obviously, less competition, artificially higher wages, which lead to artificially higher prices, exclusion of workers without union membership, compromising the property rights of the firm etc etc etc.

In a free market, a union serves no purpose.  Wages will be bid up to their market rate.  But some (incorrectly) believe that the free market can't deal with racism, sexism or "unfairness" in general, and so we have a lot more work to do towards economic literacy, even within the ranks of libertarianism.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Novus Zarathustra replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 3:34 PM

liberty student:

Read this

http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/10317.aspx

If employers are abusive, that is illegal.  If employers are unfair, that is tough luck.

Unions are mechanisms of exclusion, that traditionally relied on violence to gain privilege, (violence against the firm, and non-union workers competing for jobs) and now rely on government law (violence) to excluse other workers, limit labour competition and bully employers.

Yes, people can form unions voluntarily.  But a union's bargaining power is tied to privilege which is a statist tactic, not exclusion (via property) which is a libertarian tactic.

A libertarian should be obliged to utilize Bastiat's seen and unseen analysis regularly. We see what the unions provide for union workers.  Now what are the costs?  Obviously, less competition, artificially higher wages, which lead to artificially higher prices, exclusion of workers without union membership, compromising the property rights of the firm etc etc etc.

In a free market, a union serves no purpose.  Wages will be bid up to their market rate.  But some (incorrectly) believe that the free market can't deal with racism, sexism or "unfairness" in general, and so we have a lot more work to do towards economic literacy, even within the ranks of libertarianism.

 

Don't Unions exercise the right to assembly?

 

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Esuric replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 3:41 PM

I see no problem with voluntary unions, only those protected by the government. Unions with government protection are coercive monopolies.

"If we wish to preserve a free society, it is essential that we recognize that the desirability of a particular object is not sufficient justification for the use of coercion."

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Novus Zarathustra replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 3:44 PM

What is it called when the government protects Unions?

 

Certainly voluntarily unions are formed by people themselves.

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Caley McKibbin replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 3:45 PM

Democracy for Breakfast:

They often prevent employers being abusive, or unfair however.

No, they do not.

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Caley McKibbin replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 3:49 PM

Democracy for Breakfast:

Certainly voluntarily unions are formed by people themselves.

Strictly unenforced professional associations do not exist for the purpose of affecting wages and working conditions for reasons that I and others explained in the other union thread.

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E. R. Olovetto replied on Fri, Sep 11 2009 4:07 PM

Yep, voluntary arrangements of people are fine. Bribing government officials for special privilege is not. I believe there is a whole chapter of Rothbard's ME&S that is more detailed with some economic stuff, but this article I dug up seems very similar. 

The issue of unions feels like a parallel to why I would consider myself a voluntarist before an anarcho-capitalist. I might be satisfied by an aggressive reeducation of moron cultural marxists but refuse to advocate such things. I don't advocate capitalism so much as I reject the initiation of aggression and simultaneously recognize why capitalism is superior to alternatives. A real libertarian can acknowledge 'voluntary governments' as legitimate while clearly seeing their methods as immoral. The economic reasoning of Rothbard, that either form of typical labor unions are inherently restrictionist, is sound as far as I can tell. People are free to live in primitive barter societies, just don't ask me to.

Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave.—Karl Kraus.

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