The factor of religion removes many "rights" that each of us feel is our due. Look at the homosexual rights for example. Christians and many Jews and all Muslims believe homosexuality is a sin, possibly a deadly sin. Stem Cell Research is called cloning by many and Compassion and Choices (death with dignityy) has removed the rights and choices of many in America as well as around the world. In America, the morning after pill given at the emergency rooms across America after a rape is reported, is called murder.
America is the only nation that has a Constitutional Republic that sends these so called sins to the individual states. When a State is made up of religious voters, then abortions, gay marriages, death with dignity can be banned. At this time, many states are following the bible and will work on "one law from the Bible fits all." This removes the dignity of all people living in the USA.
To have Natural Law respected in any community, it will be necessary to declare a Secular set of laws. Until this is done, every American will have to fight for the rights of all our minorities. I have done this for over 50 years. At this time, with my family grown and independent I do live in a world of isolation. I cannot socialize in my own neighborhood as Jesus is the head honcho and I do not respect his presence. I can no longer be a member of the Republican Party as I was told by a state Senator that I have to be God-Fearing. I chose not to be a Democrat because they want a redistribution of the wealth.
Living in the bible belt I see exactly what you speak of in other states they are passing same sex marriage laws noway here they argue here for permission to post the ten commandments on a placque yes we never truly developed a separation of church and state when you finish the pledge of allegiance with" under one god" etc.Yes our laws are not secular laws and we do have to continue the good fight for the minority that you speak of by the way I pretty well keep to myself also except work and the garden and my family. Have you given a thought to the Libretarian Party that your husband was a member of?
Many members of my family were journalists from the British Isles. They understood natural rights and freedoms from government. My father's family migrated from the Highlands in Scotland and wanted the freedom to believe in whatever religion they chose. My mother's family came from Wales and migrated to the new world that held promise of natural rights. They were all influenced by the lack of individual freedoms from their native lands.
The American founders based their new nation on the freedom given to the residents. They even put together the Bill of Rights which kept the government from telling them what not to do. If you read the 10th Amendment, it gives the states the legal right to set the laws of the citizens of that state. A look back at the history of America one can see that the Christians settled in States where slavery was legal and Jesus made much of the laws. The area of the Appalachia had no laws about people marrying their own close relatives. The west was conquered by Americans who were taught that Indians were not human. Just as Spain destroyed the Indians in South America, the white man destroyed the Indians in North America. None of this can be justified as freedoms.
This was offensive to many from England and they continued to migrate to the new world for their individual freedoms. There has never been a time when America wasn't the place for freedom-loving people from all over the world. Even with the ugly influence of the religious extremists, we have millions of illegal immigrants.
The extremists want all social laws to be issued in the form of Constitutional Amendments prohibiting social issues such as gay marriages, abortions, death with dignity and stem cell research. There will be no room for individual choices within the American United States. Many Americans believe abortions are murder; and these people have the freedom to not have an abortion unlike China where they are often mandated. Many Americans want the bible to be added to our U.S. Constitution at the level of the Federal Government. See Palin's statements.....
I am worried that so many Americans need the laws issued from Big Daddy in the Government taken from Big Daddy in the sky. It is difficult to discuss this on this forum not knowing how many of you are Americans. You were given the freedom of choice by the Constitution found in the 10th Amendment.
Hopefully Americans will recognize their freedoms and demand that our government live by these freedoms. We are not and never will be a Theocracy. However if the citizens want to live by the New Testament they have the freedom to do so. They must never force this on other Americans. We are either free Americans or Christians and apparently these days we cannot be both.
David the LP has fallen into the religious right and will never accept a truly free American. Their big issue at this time is against the IRS. We tried twice to repeal the 16th Amendment through the voter laws and failed. The American voters want the IRS. The authority of the IRS is directed by the Congress, Cheating on the laws, found many LP members in prison. We elect the Congress and we must live with the consequences of a poor choice. Americans need academics and economics added to their college degrees. They should learn about the Constitution and the authority within the Congress. Could it be that evolution has removed the functions of our extended brains? Are we now simply mammals who can be herded by the government?.
You are not trained in legal reasoning and logical reasoning it seems.
First of all Natural Law is not physics, there are no mathematical formulas or axioms, no objective and eternal truths. What Natural Law is today is the interpretation that has been done since the concept was evolved by the ancient Greeks. The concept and the interpretation of Natural Law is based on certain underlying principles, this principles can be seen as fixed. That is why I said that I accept Natural Law as set out in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
As I also said there are always areas of gray where the the Constitution is silent, where doctrine is silent. Areas that has not yet been discussed and/or there are disagreements on how to interpret Natural Law.
We have here a classic example. You claim that Natural Law protects life, by life you mean an embryo. Is that to be found anywhere in the Natural Law doctrine, no. There is a gray area and as I said man has to make decisions in this gray area.
Your interpretation that life starts at insemination is based on pure religious dogma that has little or nothing to do with Natural Law. This view is held by the Catholic Church and by US literalist Christians but hardly among the majority of Natural Law scholars and jurists.
You have the right to think that abortion is immoral but you have no right t legislate that it is, you have the right to make it more scarce and more difficult to obtain as well as stop late term abortions. That said the interpretation today of Natural Law by the Supreme Court of the United States is that life begins when the pregnant woman decides to give birth not before. They weighed the life of the fetus against the rights of the woman and found the latter's rights more important.
To the discussion of objective facts and values in social science I say to you: Prove them! You can't but neither can I disprove them.
It's like proving or disproving the existence of God or the Flying Spagetti Monster, it can't be done!
I would love to bring this discussion down to individual freedoms to live as happly and contentedly as possible. Allowing an unwanted fetus to be born in a position of either putting off the birth, or terminating the birth for the happiness of the family or at least the contemtment of the mother must be allowed.. With American Christians wanting desperately to define happiness and contentment on their own terms can mean a family spending 18 years of around the clock nurturing of this unwanted thing called a baby. For American women it is a punishment of 18 years donated to the next generation.
Many women marry to sacrifice their lives around any number of children. Many of these women would rather take this time to write, compose, interpret the music or drama of others who write. I made the personal choice to do this nurturing but I had no developed talent for anything else. I loved raising my kids. My husband found them noisy and boring so he took off with his Secretary who gave him another unwanted responsibility. The answer might be that it takes a team to raise children and many women have trouble locating a mate who will share in this 18 years of responsibility.
The choice of whether to continue an unwanted pregnancy should be left to the mother. My choice was to stay and enjoy watching my kids develop into interesting personalities. My choice should never be a mandated law to force all preganancies to be brought to term. For many women this would be a long hard punishment. This is exactly what Christians want for women who have sex. Sex is punishable by having to raise and support their unwanted spawn. To have one set of humans force punishment on other humans is not what the human race should be about. We all have a natural right to happiness and fullfillment as individuals.
This is my simple philosophy and it came from observing other families who felt no joy in their actions. I was guilty of enjoying sex and I lived in the time before birth control. It was tricky but I managed to want my children. I will never judge a woman who aborted for any reason. That makes me happy and I don't give a damn if it bugs others. If we humans don't strive for our own happiness, nobody else will ever step up and do it.
What we are seeing in America, at this time, it has gone beyond debate on rights and laws and we have the normal.two sides to each poilitical discussion and societal rights. The liberals side of the American debate has worked for the individual rights for all Americans. They are the political party of the ACLU. The Conservatives have shown a terrible hatred for the liberties from the ACLU. They have become the party of armed Crusaders and have narrowed down their freedoms to fit within the New Testament. Some how the Conservatives can not believe that America was founded on Christian laws. They have even shot dead several abortionist doctors and burn down many clinics. They believe that every fetus has a good chance at adding to the numbers of the Christians. They have no sympathy for women who have natural abortions due to a problem within their female parts. They have no sympathy for natural miscarriages due to accidents or illness. Women are to breed Christians.
When we talk about natural rights women are seldom considered and yet women are responsible for the nurturing and health habits for the children. It has been a long time coming that women could support their children and vote polltically and even teach family history at home. Another factor that men do not like to discuss is that many women are more fertile. Many women go through a terrible delivery and are often damaged during this period. I delivered both kids in the lobby of the hospital and had no pain and no recovery problem. I have been with women who suffer with great blood loss and women annoyed that their birth control failed. I have been with women who were violently beaten and raped. When I hear about natural rights, I tend to pass over many comments by men who want their sperm accepted, loved, nourished and delivered to them.
Maybe when children were needed for work in farms and ranches then the label natural rights might be appropriate. My husband was disappointed to have girls and he made it clear they would not be financied through college. He refused dental payments as it would mean thousands of dollars for beauty improvement. This is why I took in sewing and costume design to pay for those rights for my girls. Both girls have graduate degrees that we all worked to achieve. By that time Daddy was on wife number 4.
I was head of my household and rights were discussed, approved and paid for my me. I did it all those years without television. We surrounded ourselves with theater, art and music (some good and some trashy) We did it without Jesus Christ holding our sins in check to throw back at us after our deaths.
krit, we made our own rights and in doing so never stepped on one of yours. We never took anything that we did not earn and nothing from any welfare money that might have been yours. Before I take information from men, I want them to deliver a child in front of me and explain the value of the zygote. I want to see you men curl up in cramps for 40 years before you claim the right to direct rights of others.
However, I would not change a day or moment with my family. I am stronger than most women my age and I still have the mind to center on the core of our problems. The last thing I wanted for my step son and my two girls was someone else setting their values and standards. They are all self-made successful adults and my grandkids are so great I often cry just to see them. I am as close to my daughter in law as I am to my own girls.
I enjoy discussing the natural rights outlined by all on this site but none of you take into consideration the human element involved. It might be that I am a Humanist and always consider the individual as being unique.
I couldn't of said it better myself only to add that I have seen the human side of this my wife had 11 miscarriages and 2 live births and finally the doctors said that she needed to have her uterus removed for her own health then finally her ovaries ruptured and needed to be removed and now the pain of the scar tissue riminds her of what she lost. I did not make her go thru all this for me she waanted a big family but I have felt her pain. So I have seen the human side of it. I am sure you do not need any one to tell you what a fantastic job you did raising your family but you did. Even though I am a man I do try to see the womans side of this discussion and I am defenately for individual rights
Thank you David, you are a rarity among men. Raising children must be the greatest joy for men and women. When one does this to please God, much of the joy is sacrificed. I was honest as a young woman and did not really want more than one child. I was an only child and remember how anxious I was to get away from others. I was an addicted reader and wanted to be left alone with my books. I was raised in my grandmother's home and she insisted on keeping me busy. WW2 tore me apart as it was reality that humans would never grow out of hating others for no rational reason. Many of my age found a terrible attitude of power grabbing from the communities. We all supported our troops and we gathered around the families who lost their loved ones. I could never understand the sacrifices of war. After starting my own family. I began to understand how people could kill when the family was threatened. My husband was never a family man. He was a loner like me but he found sharing his life with the family a waste of time. He missed all the joy. He never attended a sports game where the kids were involved. I began to realize that he married me to give his son a home. I grew to love that boy and there was plenty of room and love for all the kids.
My kids are individuals. Each one is doing professionally exactly what they want. A little taste of Hollywood drama lives with my son who does special effects for the movies and has his own studio. My girls are as individual as they desired. My older girl is a serious Buddhist and uses her Psychology degree to heal others. The baby is often on television discussing her work as a litigator for the Senate. She testified against several law breakers and has written a book about her experiences. She does a good interview and has been on CSPAN, CNN, CBS and even Fox. She is married to a very popular D.C. attorney and they have a glorious life collecting art.
Sadly my husband died last year and never saw his kids in action. After 5 wives, he died a very unhappy man. He had Parkinson's and wanted to be normal but he didn't know how. The grandkids were never part of his life and for that I will never forgive him. I went through a depression wondering if he had stayed home would he have been happier.
We humans still have to learn what makes joy in their families. We have not evolved as we should have. What ever you do David, do not live in a senior development. It was the biggest mistake I ever made and I am waiting for house prices to return and I will be out of here as fast as possible. All the kids are gravitating back to California and I too will go home where I belong. My granddaughter is getting married this year and she is slipping away to live on her own terms. I love that girl and she may need an audience to applaud her decisions. That's all we old girls can do for the family.
Your story was so sad and I am glad you shared it with all of us. Many others needed to see the reality of our decisions when it comes to natural rights and abortions.
Sandra, I cannot deliver a child as you requested, but I can try to explain the value of a zygote, since I once was one. All living human beings, for that matter, were once zygotes. I was a zygote about nine months before I was born. Had the zygote that existed in my mother's body at that time not existed, I would not be here today. If my mother had had a miscarriage at that time, I would not be here. If she had procured an abortion, I would not be here. That zygote was me, as much as the ten-year-old that I eventually became was me, though I am neither a zygote nor a ten-year-old now. If the zygote survived, it was me that survived. If it died, I died.
Have you ever read Hazlitt's "Economics in One Lesson"? If not, I would highly recommend it, though it was written several decades ago, and so is not an easy read for people today. The one lesson that he teaches, over and over, is this: in economics, you have to look at the whole picture. Non-Austrian economists too often look only at half the picture. One famous example is called the fallacy of the broken window. A window is broken, but the economist says that this is not a bad thing at all, because certain expenditures must be made, new glass bought, etc, so that the window can be repaired, and those expeditures produce benefits. So far so good. The fallacy lies in the fact that this represents only half the story, because the money spent repairing what had been a perfectly good window at one time would have been spent on something else, such as a nice meal, and the person would then have had both the window and the nice meal, instead of only a repaired window.
It seems that many people see only half of things in matters other than economics. When people speak of abortions, they refer only to the woman, never of the other life, no less real, that they cannot see. This is dishonest. There are two individuals here, each with rights. One of the ways I try to discourage abortions (which always involves the death of one of those two individuals) is to contribute to an organization that supplies a safe place to live for women who are in distress and are considering abortion. Both individuals deserve to live long happy lives, and to enjoy their grandkids in their old age.
You often speak of God and Jesus in very angry ways. It appears that what you were told about God is quite different from what I was taught. You also often speak about women having miscarriages as being considered by others to have moral culpability for this. I have never heard of this way of thinking before. Culpability requires intention, or so I was taught.
Economics under Hazlitt is probably the best reasonable argument for individual freedoms. I studied it is back before anyone understood Austrian principles. When I grew up, I honestly believed that the majority of humans were honest in their dealings with others. I even believed Jesus was a superior model for integrity. He was the man but he lost his message as it was being spread by humans on verge of insanity. You're damn right I am angry that humans in my world tend to use little of their own values and will locate a word like "zygote" and use it against others. You say you learned about God and Jesus in a different manner than I did. You except the words of brain washed prophets and you call it true?. I read the bible and dozens of other's interpretation of the words of men who never once met or talked to him. That is your freedom and I would fight for your right to dance with snakes if you believe them to represent God. I rejected the entire concept of a sky daddy making cards listing our sins.
In my world, Christians believe themselves to be sinners and unworthy of God. They were given a "get out of jail free card" if they would simply throw themselves in a prayer mode and beg for forgiveness. It is in this belief stuff you want to save the world of fetuses who could be trained to follow God like a monkey in the circus. Many journals were written trying to warn the new world of the irrational and damning of religion brought from Christians, Muslims and Jews fo America. Our early Americans wanted a government based on God and the early government writers believed that God would forgive just for the asking. Generations of our Children believe they can do, say, slander, cheat and even kill if the say they have Jesus in their minds at the time.
America ended up being populated by millions of humans who found no need to know right from wrong. This attitude now runs the nations of Europe and now America. Corruption is the God of American values. Do you expect to push any government into forcing laws on the people? You use the word "deserve" I use the word "earn" the rights to live their own lives without Big Daddy issuing citations from a cloud or the white house.
If you believe in a kind and loving God then explain to me the Crusades. Explain to me the massive militia groups in America who are skin heads. They all wear crosses, they all preach the gospels and want control over all Americans.
What I was told about God does not jibe with what I saw in the morals of the Christian masses. Read your history books on the past of slaughtering hereitics issued from the Pope on down. You can't take an art class without the Inquisitions trying to destroy all art and music that does not reflect your monster God.
I am a trained Hospice worker and I wonder how you and anyone could spent the last weeks and hours with another human whose pain and agony finds them screaming for death. I dealt with death and humans on a consistent basis until 911. I saw your uber Christian leader prefer an attack to America rather than read his mail. Bush's brain was overloaded with saving the unborn while warning of "planes hitting building" were being planned and overlooked by this brain washing sonofabitch. All my reading of the Christian influence on humanity came rushing back and I saw for myself that life is cheap in the eyes of a born-again American President. I did some work with young men who had become AIDs victims and I saw Christians praying foir their death; because one of your zygotes was flawed. Until American citizens understand the value of individual freedoms and other stay in church and out of our government, we will continue to degrade each other. How many zygotes have you adopted? How many flawed new borns have you helped financially? How many babies are being turned over to infant Hospice care because their parents beat the crap out of them for crying? You want to save the world, try helping others in their time of need.
I watched a science program on reproduction the other night and the cameras followed an ejaculation of millions of sperm fight up hill to score with a poor defenseless egg hidden in tube. It was like watching the Kentucky Derby. They even showed the failure of weak sperm.and gloating egg, laughing that they couldn't do it this time. I was like watching Monty Python's version of "every sperm must have an name."
The increase of beaten newborns is shocking especially when I read the arrogance of your words. I am not impressed by believers in any God but Christians have shown the bottom of the barrel in their refusal to stay out of our government. Even my very Christian Grandmother told me to find a non-Christian doctor to deliver my babies. They will always sacrifice the mother to the newborn. Well I didn't need any doctor as I did the whole thing on my own.
I am thrilled that my girls found ethical and moral Jewish husbands. These men do not pray for others to be destroyed. I am a Humanist and I tithe my time helping others who are flawed. I do not issue words and labels on anyone or anything. I leave Christians to their own values. I just want them to stay the hell out of the government. Christians score extremely high in my book of hypocrites.
1. Please show me a reference to a citation, interpretation or other source that agrees with your position that "Natural Law" protects a zygotes life? (The Bible or any other religious text or doctrine is not valid for this discussion. We are discussing legal doctrines based on "Natural Law" not Bible Studies.)
2. Secondly. Do you think that Capital Punishment is allowed under "Natural Law"? i.e. the taking of another human life.
3. Thirdly. Do you think that you have the right to end your own life under "Natural Law absolute self determination or do you belive that you can legislate the right to decide when life end and begins?
If you cannot show me any under 1, believe that capital punishment is OK and are against the right to self determination i.e. ending your own life I suggest you join a religious ethical forum discussing Christian fundamentalist morals. You seem not to discuss "Natural Law" nor discussing the constitution. You are discussing religious morals and their impact on legal jurisprudence and legislation. We're not!
We're discussing whether or not the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, both based on "Natural Law" prohibits abortion or allows legislators to restrict the right to abortion. The current interpretation is that the females right to self-determination is absolute. I had a very interesting discussion with a friend of mine that said that if Wade vs Roe is overthrown it will give the states a right to make abortion illegal. He said it was a pure black and white issue but that the states still could still limit how and when abortion takes place. I therefore have amended my position in that I do not any longer want to overthrow Roe vs Wade but instead want to work for restricting late term abortions. First trimester abortion should always be the choice of the woman, second trimester the choice of the doctor and third trimester only if the females life was in danger.
lets get back to natural law which is based on individual rights not nescessarily our bill of rights where we allready established that we truly could not separate church and state in this country look in your wallets and at a 1 dollar bill if you have any doubts fortunately our individual rights were protected with Roe V Wade and if you ask about the fetus it is not an individual yet it is still attached to the mother and needs the mother to survive.
If we are discussing natural rights, what does "natural law" mean?. Laws mean enforcement from some sort of government or authority. That takes the thread to another level of control. I am surrounded with people who would take a petition out to the voters to pass natural laws. This of course means Christian laws.....
Is it not possible for individual humans to design their own value systems and simply live by them? Humans have been told to live by the laws of the tribal leaders. This means political and religious leaders. The history of these tribal and religious leaders is filled with power struggles attempting to bring one authority over all. To give any human the power over the tribes introduced bigotry, hatred for those who look and act in a different way. When individual choices are removed from the laws, we give power to a government or Pope and we cannot even discuss natural rights let alone abortions.
We all have authority over our homes. Why don't we use this authority for our family members to survive? But how many of us know the history of the power of bad government and bad religion? I do and set the standards in my home to insist the children learn the consequences of bad decisions. No God would be around to forgive a cruelty or damage to anyone or anything. In my home, humans had the ability to love and remember why. We lived in a world of evolution and we reminded ourselves of this scientific gift and how to help others who still believed that our brains were simply loaned to us by a ghost.
There comes a time when our offspring must be let go and the question asked whether we prepared them to know right from wrong and not have to look at a horoscope or a bible to guide them. I wish I could tell you how many innocent little girls found themselves wandering around in search of Jesus. They were unable to judge qualities in others when a cross hanging around someone's neck took their fancy.
Coming out of WW2 woke me up to the reality of the abominations of human leaders in our nations at war. I was determined that no family that I had would never agree with the torture and slaughter that I saw in the movietone news. I saw it continue in Korea and Vietnam and I see it continue in the Middle East. What kind of monsters have we evolved into?
Individual rights must come from individuals. How do we as individuals line up as part of groups? Not one of us has the authority to direct the actions of others. I see how the Republicans want our government and they need to be told by the government what they should not do. Had we started out as sheep searching for leadership, we never would have made it above the monkeys. We developed language, memory and the ability to see two sides of every discussion. We fell off the tree when God was introduced to set our moral laws and government was introduced to set these laws in cement.
Is there no one able to live by ones own convictions? Apparently not! The difference between natural rights and natural laws is not clearly defined. I am off the chart when I use language like this. Natural rights are what we make of our freedoms. Natural law is what we are taught by government laws.
We have sold our individual rights to anyone who wants to take care of us and tell us what not to do. I firmly believe we will fall off the evolutionary tree and settle into some culture of our choosing. I was impressed by reading Orwell and Heinlein and even H.G. Wells in his time machine shook me firmly. When we look to Americans like Palin and those awful Congressional women who follow her, I can see exactly what Soylent Green had in mind. One lonely sick man still had the courage to live as an individual and die as an individual listening to music that had been banned along with his precious books. They all tell us that the power of science was removed from the individuals and used by tyrants to make free people into slaves. Let's change that!
What is the key word in our lives? Is it still God? Is it still following the skin heads who want an all white civilization? American freedoms are in extreme danger. Are we intelligent enough to survive? Is the worship of government and money taking over our developed brains? Will we sacrifice our air and water and the health of our children to make corporations wealthy? I invested in some of those corporations only to see the American government overlook the corruption and wipe me out. Our own government crapped all over our Capitalism.
When do we write our own bill of rights with the intelligence of developed mammals? Are we still developed mammals? Spend an hour at Walmarts before you answer......Once a year, I have to attend a Humanist meeting or a Secular Conference just to know that there are developed brains on this planet. My last conference was in Seattle with the Freedom From Religion group. I need to wipe out of my memory the number of people here who have prayer meeting to destroy California where everyone is a sinner. Arizona Christians believe that just living in California can contaminate people. If I don't get out of here soon, I will go ape-shit crazy.......
I wanted to explain to David James how sad it made me to hear of his wife's loss of her female parts. The physical shock is very apparent but the emotional shock is fierce. All we women take pride in our ability to breed and for many of us just the thought of an abortion cuts right into our minds. My parts were removed in my late 30s and I fought a deep depression for months. I was not the same female after my surgery and wondered if I could still nurture other living things. My husband was gone and our home was free of the fear of animals. I moved the kids to a mountain area (near the MASH set) where we hatched fertile eggs and nurtured lovely chicks and chickens. We took in a couple of cats and helped the births of some wonderful and loving cats and dogs. We got into horses and yes I nurtured some harmed animals. My nurture skills and my female brain were actively in use. Anyone who has a sister, mother or wife who goes through this total change, I only ask that you guys be tender and loving. Our sexuality is still possible but diminished, at least in my case. Even without a mate, I was on hormone therapy. Let me tell you that it woked. I look around here where I am older than most of the women but I look much better because of the hormones. Last year I had an inplant that would release homones in small amounts that would last for years. I bypassed Menopause blues and the nervousness that got me though my.physical changes called gravity! In a few weeks I'm schedule for another hip replacement and it does not depress me because it will remove the pain of arthritis and allow me to continue swimming daily in the pool here. I also feel the need to keep in touch with this thread and you great people.
If I mentioned my hormone meds, on a Christian forum, I would be considered the oldest whore on the planet. Wish me luck folks!!
Kris, when I was working on petitions to legalize abortions, I was amazed at how many Conservatives were complaining that we need more children to be born in America to fill up the Social Security money. Today in our economy, having another child added to the family would be the financial straw to destroy the home. Back in the days of the founders, it was common for the women to find and digest several herbs that would bring on her period. The Indians did this a lot when food was scarse. We still have nations on this planet who watch their children die of thirst and hunger. Birth control would be preferable but in many cases the God of the groups will deny the use of any control.
I'm a Humanist, Kris and want all living things to be wanted, nurtured and loved. We are heading into a system of survival due to many actions by our government and the hatred from other nations who want to destroy us. America is over populated with many humans who have no skills to feed, clothe or shelter themselves. They also have no sense of right over wrong. I guess I am more involved in the survival of the fittest than your guilt of many not loving life enough.
Kris, abortion is the key to giving all humans, even women, the right to determine the size of the family. This does not say that you, as an individual can chose to force an unwanted pregnancy on your own family. Freedom is the choice to allow all individuals to make the personal decisions; not the government. If you try to legislate your own opinions, it will bring on a tyrannical government force that is not wanted in a free nation. In my world, thie LP is against federal mandates that involve personal decisions.
I made this post back in February in a thread entitled "Are you pro-death or anti-choice?":
I frequently encounter the assumption that libertarians, being broadly opposed to government involvement in most everything, must support abortion "rights." Just as frequently, I am appalled by it.
The "right" to terminate a fetus implies that the fetus is the property of the mother. Thus, the only feasible reason a mother should be stopped from having an abortion would be if the fetus is no longer her property and has become an individual entitled to individual rights and thus worthy of homesteading his or her own body.
The point in question, therefore, should not be "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her body," for this is a straw man. The government has absolutely no control over the person or property of women or anyone else--all individuals own their own bodies. The term "reproductive rights" is absurd, there is no such thing (just as there are no "women's rights," or "minority rights," or any other type of group-based distinction in regards to natural rights). There are only individual rights, and all of these apply to all individuals regardless of which groups they belong to. No true libertarian contests this point. Rather, the question should be, "Who (or what) qualifies as an individual," or in other words, "At what point does a fetus become a human being and thence worthy of acquiring its own body as property?" For if we vest in government a monopoly on violence, then it is the government's primary duty to protect property and prevent individuals from exercising violence against each other. It follows from this that the minarchist government is entirely justified in forbidding the practice of killing a fetus/toddler/child/teen/adult/senior or at whatever point humans become human.
A human being is entitled to human rights regardless of how much it weighs or how human it looks or where it is located (that is, inside or outside of its mother's womb). But this is an utterly stupid thing to say, for it takes for granted that a fetus is indeed human, something entirely impossible to prove, because there are no objective criteria for the determination of humanity. So perhaps we should just legalize all abortion. But this is equally absurd, for if a human, blob of cells, or whatever the hell it is becomes a human at some point inside the womb, then a mother is committing parricide by killing her child. The government has a duty, a mandate to protect children from being murdered by parents (or anyone from being murdered by anyone, for that matter). But this is equally absurd, for we do not know with any degree of certainty that abortion of any sort is parricide, and one cannot prosecute on speculation. But speculation is all we have, and by legalizing abortion we risk legalizing parricide, and thus preventing fetuses from living out the rest of their lives.
So, when is the point at which a human becomes a human and is thus endowed with natural rights? Is it when 23 male chromosomes combine with 23 female chromosomes at fertilization? Is it when the fetus begins to take the form of a human? Is it at the first heartbeat, first brainwaves first breath, first meal, first steps, first words, first slice of bread consumed, first job acquired, first STD acquired, first signs of balding, first signs of dementia, first (insert arbitrary criterion)? The problem is that we have no objective means by which to determine at which point a person acquires individual rights and thence becomes entitled to the protection of his body from external harm by others--that is, from a violation of his property rights. We cannot have no standards whatsoever whereby we may reach a conclusion. If society is to function with any degree of sanity, we have to have some standard of who is a person and who is not.
Taking all this into consideration, it is perfectly understandable that reasonable, intelligent people disagree and will continue to disagree on the issue of abortion. I have to admit that this understanding has led me to sympathize with both sides. In spite of this, I respect neither, for neither recognizes the points I am making here as valid. Both continue to spout vain and presumptuous arguments in order to avoid a nihilistic hopelessness surrounding this issue (humans seem to despise uncertainty). It is my current state of mind that the agnostic approach is the most rational--that is, an approach of Socratic ignorance that takes claims from all fronts with equal skepticism and challenges them all with equal vigor. I simply do not see how any universal ethical principle (NAP) can apply to abortion, an issue with profound metaphysical questions that are impossible to answer with certainty by their very nature.
p.s. I have since adopted the middle ground of evictionism:
Tell me why you "Callidus Asinus" cannot find your own set of moral values and simply live by them? You may be opposed to many of the rights of others and when it comes to abortion or homophobia, cannot you simply live by your concepts and leave the rest of us to ours? I have many friends who are metaphysically based in Christian doctrine and they find gays living the lives of abomination. I personally have no such restrictions and my life is filled with cultural aspects of art, music and literature instead of judging where and with whom my friends sleep. You assume all humans live in a certain culture and we do not! Even the way we go to war is different. Many nations take great joy in raping and killing with women of their enemies. This seems to be a human failure.
When we speak of social issues in America we look to our individual states which allows us to live in states that suit our life styles. I have always been drawn to a more formal culture where the arts, theater and music can be developed. You seem to prefer a Christian type of government control where the Commandments are used as state laws. Our federal government is not designed to tell us what not to do.
In America, we have many states who are found in the bible belt. I gave Arizona 8 years to show me individual freedoms and I will not live here any longer than necessary. I'm going home to California where we are individuals and responsible only to the California state laws. It is one hell of a challenge to keep the individual choices free from the supernatural religious right. I am also involved in "Compassion and Choices" which came from the death with dignity keeping the government out of our final choices. We do not mandate anything involving how the individual chooses to die. I seem to have been a Libertarian a lot longer than many on this forum.
Sandra:I'm going home to California where we are individuals and responsible only to the California state laws. ... I seem to have been a Libertarian a lot longer than many on this forum.
Oh my. I wish him luck in his persuit for a strong set of moral values. I'm heading for the high desert of Palm Springs.
Yikes, remind me to read before I post. Please change the above to "pursuit" instead of "persuit" Sorry!
sorry I have been out of the loop for so long i am a carpenter and I work for my self and there is finally some work so I have been busy Sandra I wish you the best of luck with your move I feel that you will be happier in CA
Thank you David. I have to be able to walk and drive before I can move to California. I am scheduled for my hip replacement on the12th and then a couple of months of physical therapy and I will be out of here. These people still believe Obama was born in Kenya. We might have better opinions if Rush would hang up his mike. I'm voting LP until I get back to California.