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The law - bastiat

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David P. Posted: Mon, Dec 28 2009 2:20 AM

My god. This book empowered me. I am going to buy five and hand them out during my speech about state sovereignty, come the 13th.

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Agreed David.  This has got to be one of the best that I've ever read, and one that I try to re-read periodically.

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I enjoyed Bastiat's work as well.  I purchased the complete works of Bastiat (here at LvMI) and what I've read thus far is great.  Highly recommended to spur Economics students' thinking.

Where will you be giving your speech?

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fakename replied on Sun, Jan 17 2010 8:01 PM

 

David Phaup:

My god. This book empowered me. I am going to buy five and hand them out during my speech about state sovereignty, come the 13th.

bastiat is the king of common sense and clear thinking in the realm of economics.

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rmalbo replied on Sat, Feb 13 2010 5:33 PM

Everytime I read it I get more out of it. A truly remarkable piece of work. I picked up the Bastiat Collection from the store, also and would highly recommend. I've only read the first volume so far but would say that there are several works of equal quality and importance as The Law. That Which Is Seen, and That Which Is Not Seen and Government are two that come quickly to mind and are both must reads.

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Sir Irb replied on Thu, Mar 11 2010 4:07 PM

This book was the one that made me go from Minarcho to Anarcho. It was his treatment of the superman (I believe is how he stated it); those (elected officials) who are seen as smarter/ more moral than we. It was a powerful 75 pages.

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The Bastiat Collection, in terms of physical quality and content, is excellent. The force of Bastiat, however, will mostly be felt in the first volume.
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Michael replied on Sat, Jun 12 2010 10:43 PM
As a political scientist, this book opened my eyes to what government really is. What makes his work great is that he explains the idea of plunder by the state. However, this book requires the reader to except his logical definitions (like any other political piece) in order to understand it. If a person is not able to equate plunder with the state then the book will be ineffective to the reader (I know cause some of my classmates didn't pick up the understanding of what Bastiat was getting at). What was awesome was that my teacher made this book part of his class which is why I was introduced to it in the first place. Hayek's advice about dominating the intellectual field is key. Otherwise we leave all the discussion on these topics in the hands of statists who believe that government intervening in the economy is not only legitimized, but worse, helpful.
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup.You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend. -Bruce Lee
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Michael,

 

It sounds like you're on the right track.  It bears noting that Bastiat's concept of legal plunder is related to what Ralph Raico calls "[classical] liberal class conflict" theory in his lecture series "History: The Struggle for Liberty."  Before Marx's class conflict theory (which runs roughly opposite to its predecessor), it was common for members of the classical liberal (i.e. libertarian) school of thought to refer to two classes: producers, those who live off of their own toil, and plunderers, those who live off of the fat of others using the machinery of government.  In fact, Marx's opening to the Communist Manifesto, his most famous and direct declaration of his class theory, was virtually plaigarized from a work by one of the followers of Jean-Baptiste say, who was an influential classical liberal thinker.

 

You're also quite right about the importance of the intellectuals in the struggle between liberty and statism.  Toward the end of his book Socialism, Ludwig von Mises argues that ideas will always determine individuals' political views, and that no amount of pure evidence will convince socialists that their system is malicious.  This was incredibly prescient of Mises, writing in 1922.  Nearly a century of subsequent experience--which has given us the contrast between East and West Berlin or between America and the USSR, and which has raised the body count of socialism by tens or even hundreds of millions--seems to have done nothing to sway public opinion.

 

-Christopher

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Aquila replied on Wed, Jun 16 2010 9:43 PM

Hello, my name is Ben, and I'm a recovering conservative.

I've been putting off reading The Law for quite some time and man have I missed out. If only I had discovered it years earlier. As a conservative, I considered the "law" to be sacred and absolute. It did not need moral justification because it is the law and is therefore right. Bastiat destroys this statist fantasy by demonstrating that laws are often nothing more than special privileges and protections to the politically-connected.  He helped me realize that the only just law is that which protects life, liberty, and private property.

Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty,and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place.

Sheer poetry. Mandatory reading for all recovering conservatives.

 

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I used to consider myself a conservative, but now I am seeing myself more as a classical liberal. The problem I have with conservatism is that conservatives tend to be realists on the international sphere and thus are prone to wars which lead to the erosion of liberty and prosperity for people. However, I am balancing between classical liberalism and anarcho-capitalism but there is some questions that I am considering about both that still needs to be resolved. However, Bastiat Rothbard and Mises (especially Mises) have really influenced my decision to jump away from conservatism and except classical liberalism.
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup.You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend. -Bruce Lee
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meambobbo replied on Thu, Jun 17 2010 9:31 AM

Law is a strange concept to most people. ...so is morality. The reason I believe that most people will equate law with morality has nothing to do with a moral philosophy and principled analysis.

"There's no one coming. Should I just run this red light?" "You shouldn't do that." "Why not?" "Because you might get a ticket."

 How often do we analyze things as good or bad rather than good and evil? We don't run the red light (or break ___ law) not because we believe doing such is evil, but because we have equated it with the risk of something we don't want, usually the risk of getting caught and penalized by the law enforcement agency. Over time this conflation remains as the person begins to investigate things from a good/evil perspective.

We believe that which is bad is also evil - we create the principled justification to reconcile two conflicting moral systems. We could say, "Breaking the law sets a bad example to others, who are less responsible than us" or "You may not agree with every law, but our common agreement to follow them all is what creates civil society". We are simply trying to present our own weakness as strength. We have no real good/evil rationale for why the law exists; however, rather than admit this to ourselves and admit that our adherence to the law is driven by weakness and fear, we justify the law in terms of good and evil. Then we can view ourselves with pride - we were strong enough to resist temptations contrary to our moral fabric.

At the same time there are laws that tons of people break, which are not viewed as immoral, simply because there is relatively no risk of being caught, and if so, the penalties are meager. For example, the law dictates we declare what we've purchased on the internet and pay the sales tax. However, there is absolutely no enforcement of such or penalty for non-compliance. Surely, very few people would consider such people evil.

Of course some who are completely wrapped in the statist paradigm and have completely equated the law with morality would call them evil, yet I question if even these people actually pay the sales taxes. I think the people who believe the law represents morality but break it anyway come to view society as an evil, scary place in constant decline. They are also filled with self-guilt and powerlessness. How can they get others to behave morally, when they themselves lack the will-power to behave as such? They long for a totalitarian government that can not only stop others but stop themselves from illegal activity. They long for someone strong enough to force people to stop being evil. These people are sick.

I don't think that most people ever reach a moral philosophy at all. They simply chase what they believe is good. When they encounter something they want but that is forbidden by law and entails a significant risk of being enforced, they, rather than admit they are too weak to overcome the power of law enforcement and attain what they want, declare what they want to be evil. Thus, their decision not to pursue it is not an admission of weakness, but a display of strength - to resist what one naturally desires because it is would have bad effects on others.

Check my blog, if you're a loser

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Shawn77 replied on Thu, Jun 17 2010 1:43 PM

Michael :
I used to consider myself a conservative, but now I am seeing myself more as a classical liberal.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the labels. 

Michael :
The problem I have with conservatism is that conservatives tend to be realists on the international sphere and thus are prone to wars which lead to the erosion of liberty and prosperity for people

 

what do you mean by this statement.  If anything they have a less realistic grasp on international politics.

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Realist school of international thought has nothing to do with the term. I'm a political scientist so please forgive me as we have our own language lol. By realist, I mean that international politics is nothing but a power game and it should be treated as such. This means that states should take any means necessary to ensure that they are the top dog within their sphere of influence. To realist, the state is all that matters in the realm of international politics. War to realist is inevitable. Meanwhile, liberals believe that with trade, countries no longer need to worry about power politics and can engage in mutual cooperation and thus generate mutual benefit. War to liberals is a choice. Conservatives are usually part of the realist school, although some Socialist also abide by this ideology of international thought. I agree with your statement that this method of international politics is rather unrealistic since it must always feed on itself. Not to be cliche but it's perceptual war for perpetual peace. I hope this clears things up. Also labels are important for they allow us to categorize abstract ideas into readily understandable terms. By stating I am a classical liberal, I am saying that I am pro free market, mostly a pacifist, believe in cooperation over conflict but still see a government necessary as the chief resolver of conflict (which sets me apart from anarco-capitalist), and I believe in no social intervention on people's lives by government. The list can go on and on, but by saying I am a classical liberal, it helps people understand where my beliefs are without using so many words.
Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup.You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water my friend. -Bruce Lee
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Aquila replied on Thu, Jun 17 2010 9:48 PM
I find this realist/liberal dichotomy fascinating. You've given me a strong urge to read up on political science. It could be useful for distinguishing myself from conservatives in debates. Left-liberals always accuse me of being conservative and it irks me because it is so far from the truth. For some reason it never bothers me when a conservative calls me a liberal, though.
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I think if you want to be accurate its a IR term (International Relations). 

You can read up on it here. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism_(internaational_relations)

 

Also I have the same feelings regarding labels. I do detest being called a conservative. Maybe we are more sympathetic to the left, maybe we simply think of the words in their initial meaning. 

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