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Capitalism Misrepresented

Latest post Wed, Aug 6 2008 12:08 PM by Torsten. 65 replies.
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 6:30 PM

    Capitalism Misrepresented

    Socialism vs. Capitlaism

    http://www.subtire.com/i.php?n=svsc.jpg

    What ever happened to no coercion?

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 6:36 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    ViennaSausage:

    Socialism vs. Capitlaism

    http://www.subtire.com/i.php?n=svsc.jpg

    What ever happened to no coercion?

    Because 'capitalism' as it is commonly perceived is not laissez-faire.  Though I acknowledge Mises' desire to stick with it (the importance of capital formation) one may as well just stick to 'free markets' or 'individual liberty' since they mean the same thing and are not so nearly as likely to be misinterpreted.

    • Post Points: 35
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 7:49 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    How would a free market depiction look like?  Perhaps a consumer and a bunch of options for exchange?

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 8:31 PM In reply to

    • Niccolò
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    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    Ante Simtapalic wrote about this here.

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 9:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    Niccolò:

    Ante Simtapalic wrote about this here.

    Talking about yourself in the 3rd person?  Huh?

    Also, do you still have that leather jacket?  I'd like to bid on it.

     

    "I kiss my fear on the mouth"
    No Treason - Now with dofollow comment links

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 9:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    ViennaSausage:

    How would a free market depiction look like?  Perhaps a consumer and a bunch of options for exchange?

    Praxeologically speaking, we can not predict a free market's structure at any time in the future.  This will have to be determined by people's actions, which is to say, "By the market".  Describing institutions in a free market is, strictly speaking, not an endevour of economics (though economics may inform our ideas).  What a free market might be like, empirically speaking, depends on your estimation of empirical information and expectations about future states.  Since we currently live in a market where coercion is widespread our difficulties are compounded.

    I do not say this to discourage such investigations, indeed developing ideas about organization is one requisite for entrapeneurial endevour.  But it seems to me that many libertarians compound economic and empirical predictions too much.

    Kevin Carson  believes, and I agree, that the structure of western intervention in the economy has systematically created and protected certain businesses and industries which rely on high capital concentration and economies of scale.  This has fostered certain business models and specific businesses which would be less competitive on a free market.  Basically: too much capital concentration, too much expensive technical stuff, too many technicians and bureacrats, inferior wages and flexibility for workers (including technicians).

    Now his predictions of a free market are somewhat praxeologically sound, ceterus paribus, which is to say we would simply see less of this sort of organization and more of other types.  Of course this whole argument is really a specific example of misallocation of resources due to interference with market forces.  But he is not justified, as he has if not outright stated at least implied, that firm-structures, labor contracts and other typical features of the present economy would be absolutely uncompetitive or secondary.  He has made a compelling case that it exists excessively at present due to intervention, but just how excessively can only be shown by the market.  Perhaps high-capital concentration firms would still dominate or be extremely competitive if the artificial strictures were to disappear, for these firms are just as distorted by internal incentive and relationships to the state as they are a product of that distortion.  Also his notions that things like nuclear power and computers are products of government intervention and artificial capital concentration-automation-technicality from this structure confuses proximate causes with ultimate causes.  The proximate cause of computer technology and computerization may have been government action, but the ultimate cause is that capital was available for their development.  Small difference you say?  Yet a free market will promote much more real growth and thus more capital creation.  Even if Carson were correct that the relative capital concentration is artificial, in a free market absolute capital would be likely to increase.  It is possible to imagine in a free market, for example, that everyone has just about the same exchangeable-wealth as everyone else but where the capital concentration of any individual exceeds all of Wal-Mart at present.  One need only point to a present day machine shop whose cost would be virtually infinite 60 years ago.

    I dedicate so much space to a discussion of Carson's ideas and erroneous or misleading ideas because many on here will likely agree with me.  Yet I believe that many market-anarchists make the exact same error or misleading statements when imagining Libertopia.  Hans Hoppe and the Tannehills, for example, have a distinctively conservative and firm-based image of the stateless market which, while not a priori wrong, are also not a priori accurate - even in tendency.  Markets tend to promote individual power, which means that individual choices - left or right, wrong or right - tend to have more sustainability and effect.  Hoppe might predict that homosexual anarcho-socialists will have less materially and intellectually rich communities and even individuals.  Homosexuals are very willing to withstand not only social and economic but also violence.  An increase in capital makes every individual more productive and more immune to social approbrium.  Presuming a generally libertarian society, unless masses of strangers arbitrarily forgo the ever increasing contributions of a homosexual he will likely feel little sting.

    Being kept out of a place one has no desire to go to rarely bothers people, and some people don't care what the 'elites' say, natural or otherwise.  The iconoclastic Hoppe has ably demonstrated this by disagreeing openly and broadly with State and anti-state elites.  Natural elites have a great deal of influence but it is bought with their intellectual and material capital.  A lot of people who are natural elites actually encourage 'deviant' behaviour because they can afford it.  Their very existence upsets 'conservatism', they will be willing to disagree on the most important points if they believe they are right and will be best able to persuade others even if they are wrong about the things they advocate.

    Need I point out that developments like AI, genetic manipulation and transhumanism possess the appeal and potential productivity to transform the world away from either ideal?  Where ideas like 'sex' and 'authority' lose their relevance (at least to some people)?  I do not posit this as a prediction, it may not even come to pass, I simply say that most ideas take existing economic and social conditions, somewhat purified, as embodying models of the future.  I think that a free market is something nobody can predict, and the longer its free the faster your predictions go out the window.

    I have my own predictions, based on certain philosophical as well as scientific ideas I have.  I am a libertarian transhumanist, as well as being a radical egoist (value-individualism if you prefer).  I tend toward a mix of Hoppe's and Konkin's views of a future because it is my belief that such a structure will naturally evolve out of not only existing differences but different preferences people have.  I think transhumanism is likely (though I am not a professional) and I think that throws much of traditional social mores and norms out the window.  My ideal society is a transhuman variant of Stirner's union of egoist, where everyone acts for his own purposes and views all values as subsidiary to himself.  "The Stone Canal" novel shows a somewhat caricature version of this.
      But I certainly do not posit this for the immediate future, and I certainly may be wrong in some points.  I think it's important for theorists of a free market, especially a radically free market, realise that however good their reasons are predictions of economcs and society are predictions of human action.  You really, really don't know.

    • Post Points: 20
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 9:25 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    We've had this "definition of capitalism" argument here recently.

    I don't really give a crap what Niccolo or Kevin Carson think. I'm not really interested in left anarchist propaganda, and based on our last discussion on this topic, many other people weren't either (this is not directed at the poster I replied to, just a general statement).

    If capitalism is the opposite of socialism, then it is the private ownership of the means of production.  Leftists like to befuddle and obfuscate any terminology that presents a clear alternative to socialism, anything that casts socialism into a bright light, naked and shivering.

    All of these elaborate explanations, when we have a perfectly good one, and the very people who would tear it down admit to being mutualists or anarcho-syndicalists and offer us nothing in return to clearly contrast socialism.

    Mises knew what capitalism was, and he used the term correctly.  He also knew that socialism was not only not viable, like fascism, it was a form of statism.

    Let's dot our Is and cross our Ts.  This redefinition nonsense is bunk.

     

    "I kiss my fear on the mouth"
    No Treason - Now with dofollow comment links

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 9:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    liberty student:

    We've had this "definition of capitalism" argument here recently.

    I don't really give a crap what Niccolo or Kevin Carson think. I'm not really interested in left anarchist propaganda, and based on our last discussion on this topic, many other people weren't either (this is not directed at the poster I replied to, just a general statement).

    If capitalism is the opposite of socialism, then it is the private ownership of the means of production.  Leftists like to befuddle and obfuscate any terminology that presents a clear alternative to socialism, anything that casts socialism into a bright light, naked and shivering.

    All of these elaborate explanations, when we have a perfectly good one, and the very people who would tear it down admit to being mutualists or anarcho-syndicalists and offer us nothing in return to clearly contrast socialism.

    Mises knew what capitalism was, and he used the term correctly.  He also knew that socialism was not only not viable, like fascism, it was a form of statism.

    Let's dot our Is and cross our Ts.  This redefinition nonsense is bunk.

     

    What a nice serious of disingenous strawmen. It's not "left-anarchist propaganda" to point to the role of the state in concentrating capital and artificially boosting and privileging big industry at the expense of consumers and workers.

    As I've pointed out before, "private ownership of the means of production" in and of itself is vague and does not necessarily describe a pure free market. It can theoretically describe monarchy. It says nothing about justice or aquisition or ethics or anything of that sort.

    I don't favor socialism or communism or syndicalism. You're viewing things through a silly red-baiting/pink-baiting lense. I don't favor "capitalism" in any traditional sense either.

    Kevin Carson's position is practically the same as Benjamin Tucker's, only he actually synthesizes elements of austrian economics into his view. He quite clearly is working within the tradition of individualist anarchism.

    Mises isn't an authority in the realm of anarchism, only economics. Even the "capitalism" that Mises himself supported was a form of statism. The usage of the term "capitalism" to describe a form of anarchism didn't exist until Murray Rothbard, and it easily can be argued that it was Rothbard who was changing definitions by coining "anarcho-capitalism".

    Historically, even the most radical of laissez-faire economists still clung to the idea of the need for a state to define and protect property rights, and of course in reality the state always ends up misdefining them and violating them. 99.99% of everyone who has ever spoken favorably of capitalism or defined themselves as a capitalist have been statists of some sort.

    It makes no sense whatsoever for anarchists to view right-wing statists and/or minarchists more favorably than other actual anarchists. I would much rather be associated with someone like Kevin Carson or Roderick Long than someone like Pat Buchannan or Bob Barr.

    There is no redefinition going on, only a revaluation of where one stands on the political spectrum. In fact many of the people in question are insisting on using the words in their original meanings or contexts, or they are rejecting cliche false dichotomies in contemporary political discourse.

    What you're fighting for is a word and a particular political spectrum, not a principle.

    You repeatedly fail to grasp the concept of someone who is both a radical free marketer and a "leftist" in some sense at the same time. It seems inconcievable to you that someone can be "left" and "libertarian" or "left" and "free market" at the same time. I think that this is because you are still applying an erroneous political spectrum that proclaims "less government" to be "rightist" and "more government" to be "leftist".

    • Post Points: 20
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 10:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    It looks like the link has exceeded its bandwidth.  The picture was very similar to someone on the Mises Forum where a blue man with a cash bag was being held up by a red man with a gun which was entitled socialism.  A picture right next to was the same thing accept the bag of money was with the red man, and he still had the gun pointed at the blue man.  It was funny, but just misrepresented Free Market Capitalism.  Perhaps it was an accurate depiction of Corpratism or Mixed Market Capitalism.

    • Post Points: 5
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 10:18 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    liberty student:
    If capitalism is the opposite of socialism, then it is the private ownership of the means of production.

    Strictly speaking yes.  Socialism is Centralization & Collective/Public Ownership if the means of production, and Capitalism is Decentralization & Private Ownership.

    liberty student:
    Mises knew what capitalism was, and he used the term correctly.

    While Mises may have appropriated the term Capitalism in reference for Laissez-Faire/Free Market, the term was pejoratively created and used by Marx.  Marxist skew the definition of Capitalism to their favor utilizing a different one that the Free Market.

     

    • Post Points: 5
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 11:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    I'm not really interested in left anarchist propaganda

    I am not going to deny the existence of left-anarchist propaganda which exaggerates or makes mistakes.  But I think that left-anarchism and right-anarchism both have some valid points which need more critical interpretation and qualification than they usually give.  This is, however, more a problem of the people promoting the ideas online than the originators of these ideas.  I would say that Carson is a serious scholar who has raised very interesting questions, although I disagree with him on practically every point of economic reasoning the ideas he and several Austrians have developed have, I think, raised our understanding of the present economic conditions.  Everyone know that mercantalism/fascism is not the free market, but few pro-market scholars will examine just what the exact economic effects institutions of this nature have.  If Carson were correct that abnormal concentration of economic control and the promotion of certain forms of economic organization which allow the state to effect abnormal power on people's lives this would be an important 'utilitarian' argument; indeed it seems a natural outgrowth of hard-core libertarian and Austrian claims that Corporatism sucks; why do we put so much emphasis on how the government rules screws over consumers and businessmen for power but ignore the way it screws people over as employees and limits their options.  Indeed, work by Stromberg and others along the same lines indicate that this is perhaps the natural direction of private-property 'capitalism' under a State regime.  It fascinates me in that, although complicity of some interests in business is obvious, the business community might actually be 'roped in' to this sort of organization even if they would prefer others and even if they personally and politically object to the measures which promote it.

    If capitalism is the opposite of socialism, then it is the private ownership of the means of production

    I agree with this, and I don't agree with Carson's views on land.  But remember that 'private' simply means owned and disposed of by somebody in particular, libertarians promote a certain type of private property.  Thus even the view of capitalism by your defintion is open to statist misinterpretation.

    All of these elaborate explanations, when we have a perfectly good one,

    As I expressed, I do not agree with Carson's economic theorems but find some of his ideas interesting - epsecially when further developed by Austrians.  It is important to realise that Carson's theory of the firm in the present is very Austrian and thus fits with our 'perfectly good' explanation.
    If you refer to what an anarchist society might be like, we have a lot of interesting and plausible ones but I think it is incumbent upon us to realise that we don't really know what a free market society would look like.  But, from an economic standpoint, potential merits or flaws in our imaginary organizations have no bearing on the fact that the market does work, and it's really the only organization we can say objective 'works' in the sense of mutual gain.  So while it is important to recognize holes or guesses within our 'Future-World' for intellectual clarity and precision I am not saying that 'an-caps' or others need to abandon their ideas of what society would be like, or what they'd like it to be like.  Because the market works to solve these problems, even if - especially if - a handful of guys with immense amounts of knowledge and free time can still find things to argue over.  All these things that depend on our subjective evaluation and preferences will get worked out by people's actual choices, and these will work as well as anything we can expect.

    Anarcho-syndicalism in its classic formulation is not anarchistic in our sense.  It is decentralized fascism.  And though errors are present on the left, the more 'vulgar' the more common, dismissing such a broad grouping really doesn't seem justified considering that Proudhoun and Josiah Warren could easily consider themselves in the same tradition.  Thus many individualist anarchists and right anarchists came at certain observations and conclusions through the development of what would be called 'leftist' ideas.  Indeed, it is important never to forget that what is generally recognized as a culturally left radicalism did grow out of classical liberalism, just like egoism and 'natural' elitism.  I prefer an argument with a good radical statist to an argument with a welfare statist, who doesn't even understand what he's for much less opposed to.  Radicalism in intellect may be intellectually converted communists tend to have more in common with libertarians than with modern liberals.

    Mises knew what capitalism was, and he used the term correctly.

    I agree Mises was fairly justified in using 'capitalism' for the free market on several grounds, but I think it is historically and strategically problematic.  Capital is important, yes, but capital doesn't control, make up or define the market economy.  The market does.  Taking on a term of approbation because others spite you with it is certainly something I appreciate.  But Marx did confuse State-mercantalism with laissez-faire, or at least thought there was no difference.  What he describes as 'capitalism' is not laissez-faire, and just as Marxist criticism certainly don't apply to the free market I can not see why we would call the free market 'capitalism' except that Rand and a handful of others tended to do so.  I do think it is stupid that people get so hung up on labels without even exploring core ideas, but even ignoring this 'capitalism' is a misleading label.

    He also knew that socialism was not only not viable, like fascism, it was a form of statism.

    No disagreement here.  But don't forget that socialists, past and present, aren't always statists.  Some of them really do believe in a libertarian society of individual freedom and simply think it would take a different form.  And, like all free-market transactions, a voluntary commune is productive and can make economic calculation just like a firm or individual agent.

    Let's dot our Is and cross our Ts.  This redefinition nonsense is bunk.

    But you don't need to argue this fact with me.  Almost everyone in favor of something they call 'capitalism' mean a free or more-free market.  But because of the negative press of the word, mostly directed against mercantalism, why not simply stick with the word 'market' or 'free market'?  I am not trying to waste time in semantics, I presume you do mean a laissez-faire economy and if anything I think Mises' defense of it wasn't thorough going enough.  But the language we're using depends at least partially on the rest of the human race who sees the as 'capitalist' the present system and resents the very real defects.  To tell him this isn't 'really' capitalism, and that the capitalism you envision will have none of this is simply confusing and implausible.  Imagine if we called market defense agencies 'Government', but went around talking to anarchists telling them that our 'government' won't involve any of the problems of the old one.  You run a serious risk of justified disinterest, just as I am unlikely to spend my time listening to people talk about 'communism'.  They might very well mean 'individual liberty and freedom with social interaction predominated by voluntary pooling of assets'.  This communist-corporation idea might be very fascinating and appealing to me, but I might never hear it because I hear 'communism' and my brain scoffs.  Recognizing this reaction to 'capitalism' should at least give us pause before tossing the world around willy-nilly without qualification.

    To Brainpolice: I agree with the views you presented, have probably duplicated some of them here.  But, as I am sure you know, many who consider themselves right-anarchists or who behave as vulgar-libertarians are philosophically libertarian and simply have not been exposed to rational and libertarian critiques of their views as regards existing-business.

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  • Fri, Jul 18 2008 2:56 AM In reply to

    • JonBostwick
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    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    R.J. Moore II:
    Because 'capitalism' as it is commonly perceived is not laissez-faire.  Though I acknowledge Mises' desire to stick with it (the importance of capital formation) one may as well just stick to 'free markets' or 'individual liberty' since they mean the same thing and are not so nearly as likely to be misinterpreted.

    The word is not simply cosmetic.

    We are anarcho-capitalists because of how we deal with capital.

    Capitalists are those who privately own, or advocate the private owernship of, capital. (Though I presume Marx would have been quick to apply the term to anyone who merely tolerated its existance) It can be state capitalism, or it can be market capitalism.

    To call yourself an anarcho-capitalist is to make an important distinction. A distinction that terms like "individual", "voluntary", "right/left", or even "market" dont clearly make.

    Ask an anarcho socialist if we are capitalist.

     

    Peace
    • Post Points: 35
  • Fri, Jul 18 2008 4:32 AM In reply to

    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    Capitalists are those who privately own, or advocate the private owernship of, capital.

    But 'capitalism' already has a meaning which, if vague and inconsistent, is held by a mass of the human race.  I am not saying that you can not make some definitional or etymilogical case for using capitalism.  I already acknowledged that Mises' argument was fine in itself.  But a 'free market' means (in Mises' mouth) precisely the same way of doing things as what he means by 'Capitalism'.  A free market has the clear implication of being both free and a market in name.  Indeed, the 'means of production in private hands' (from a libertarian standpoint) merely says that capital is sold on the market, that it is free to be bought, sold, saved etc.  To have a free market implies private capital, indeed it is precisely the lack of a capital-goods market which dooms socialism.  NOT capital itself - nor capitalists - are the core of the market, but the fact that capital and all other services may be bought and sold, make a market what it is.  Market anarchism or free market do not put any emphasis upon capital or the capitalist, which 'capitalism' might easily be miscontrued as.  Likewise, mercantalism and the western 'ruling class' have a long association with conspicuous capitalists.  Wilsonian corporate-liberals, with their systematic belief and support of vertically integrated capital heavy industries (and the limited clique which owned a lot of it), have far more historical and etymological claim to the word than radical individualists.  Unlike our claims to the word 'anarchism', which can be justified on purely historical and etymological grounds, 'capitalism' can more easily be used to name a system of systematic government privlidge for capital-heavy businesses than for libertarian anarchism or free exchange.

    Likewise, as Brainpolice as pointed out, Feudal lords were 'private' owners of the means of production, but they were certainly not libertarian.  Thus private ownership itself does not distinguish austro-libertarianism from fascism, feudalism or monarchy.

    The abandonment of 'capitalism' to signify a market economy is strategically and definitionally sound.

    Ask an anarcho socialist if we are capitalist.

    Yeah, ask most anarcho-socialists what capitalism is and they will tell you government privilidge for the rich and capital holders.  This is precisely why we might not want to be known as 'capitalists'.

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  • Fri, Jul 18 2008 6:03 AM In reply to

    • JonBostwick
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    Re: Capitalism Misrepresented

    R.J. Moore II:
    But 'capitalism' already has a meaning which, if vague and inconsistent, is held by a mass of the human race.

    And I just gave it!

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitalism

    R.J. Moore II:
    The abandonment of 'capitalism' to signify a market economy is strategically and definitionally sound.

    You are advocating a specific kind of "free market" a "capitalist free market". Syndicalists advocate a "socialist free market."

     

    R.J. Moore II:
    This is precisely why we might not want to be known as 'capitalists'.

    Thats all great and fine. Only problem is its still accurate. What happens when a socialists accuses you of being a capitalist? Deny it?

    Peace
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  • Fri, Jul 18 2008 7:25 AM In reply to