This challenge was issued to me:
"Is there a country in this world where Mises' ideas created a society more free and prosperous than the Netherlands, my favourite alibertarian society?"
Did he say "alibertarian", or "libertarian"? Because, I'm Dutch, and any attempt at calling this a libertarian society is laughable to say the least. I'm fighting the good fight here, along with several other motivated people, but the Dutch people are so indoctrinated with Statist thinking, it is almost hopeless.
The only thing my country has going for it is that it's reasonably socially liberal (liberal in the classical sense of the word that is). We have legalised gay marriage and semi-legalised the use of soft drugs, but other than that it is terrible. We have a decently prosperous country despite heavy government interference in the economy (I think a large part of it is thanks to being part of the 'free trade zone' in the EU). The influence of the state is on the rise though, thanks to the 'war on terror'. Fun fact: Did you know the goverment issues 1800 phone taps in my country..... per day that is. (compared to 2200 per year in your country) We are obligated to have ID cards on us all the time (Ausweiss bitte!), and a lot of personal information is collected in one big government database and distributed to every goverment agency that 'needs' it as well as the insurance companies. (We are obligated to be insured in a socialist insurance scheme which they call 'privatised'). Next to this, there is no respect for property rights at all, nobody ever heard of that. We are taxed to the hilt. I believe about 50% of everyone's income disappears to the state. And don't get me started about the European Union... These are just a few examples of the statism in my country.
I'm sorry to bother you guys with my frustrations. But there are multiple examples of countries which are more free and more prosperous than Holland. In the mean time the few libertarians that live here are trying their hardest to change the situation.
Is there a country in this world where Mises' ideas have been pursued at least half as vigorously as egalitarian sentiments have been in most European countries?
Moxxar: Did he say "alibertarian", or "libertarian"? Because, I'm Dutch, and any attempt at calling this a libertarian society is laughable to say the least. I'm fighting the good fight here, along with several other motivated people, but the Dutch people are so indoctrinated with Statist thinking, it is almost hopeless. The only thing my country has going for it is that it's reasonably socially liberal (liberal in the classical sense of the word that is). We have legalised gay marriage and semi-legalised the use of soft drugs, but other than that it is terrible. We have a decently prosperous country despite heavy government interference in the economy (I think a large part of it is thanks to being part of the 'free trade zone' in the EU). The influence of the state is on the rise though, thanks to the 'war on terror'. Fun fact: Did you know the goverment issues 1800 phone taps in my country..... per day that is. (compared to 2200 per year in your country) We are obligated to have ID cards on us all the time (Ausweiss bitte!), and a lot of personal information is collected in one big government database and distributed to every goverment agency that 'needs' it as well as the insurance companies. (We are obligated to be insured in a socialist insurance scheme which they call 'privatised'). Next to this, there is no respect for property rights at all, nobody ever heard of that. We are taxed to the hilt. I believe about 50% of everyone's income disappears to the state. And don't get me started about the European Union... These are just a few examples of the statism in my country. I'm sorry to bother you guys with my frustrations. But there are multiple examples of countries which are more free and more prosperous than Holland. In the mean time the few libertarians that live here are trying their hardest to change the situation.
Basically he's saying "socialism works in Holland, the people are prosperous, while mises hasn't even been tried anywhere"
Well you can tell your friend that that is BS.
The reason that we are relatively prosperous in Holland is not thanks to, but despite the enormous amount of government interference. There are several big problems in my country at which people get really pissed off about. All those problems have to do with the public sector, and it is huge...
Our healthcare system is broken, with costs spiralling out of control, bad quality care (especially for the elderly) and waiting lists. The education system sucks basically. Our roads are clogged up. Retirement payments are huge, welfare is massive. (in some cases it pays not to get a job because people get more money from the government) The energy companies are owned by the government. Public transport consists of companies which have gotten a monopoly position by the government. Taxi prices are set by the government. And I've probably forgotten a lot... Everywhere in the public sector, costs are on the rise and quality is getting worse.
What you can tell your friend, is that Holland is basically 50% socialist and 50% relatively capitalistic (I say relatively because there are still very high taxes and a lot of regulation). The 50% which is socialist is broken and is sucking up an enormous amount of wealth which could otherwise have been in the hands of the public. The other 50% is creating all the wealth and is letting people be prosperous and entrepeneurs. And as I said in my post before, the free trade zone in Europe has enabled a lot of prosperity as well. (Not the EU though, only the free trade zone)
Our prosperity is because of the places government doesn't control. Imagine the prosperity we could have if Mises' ideas would be implemented.
Holland is prosperous? News to me...
People usually throw Sweden or Norway around, and then I get to drag out a couple of papers dispelling the myth. Interestingly, all the aforementioned countries were once strongly capitalist - especially the Netherlands. Anyway, countries like Hong Kong, Singapore, even Taiwan, are examples of countries that lean towards laissez-faire and prosper accordingly.
-Jon
I cannot be caged. I cannot be controlled. Understand this as you die, ever pathetic, ever fools.
Irenicus' Diaries.
Jon Irenicus: Holland is prosperous? News to me... People usually throw Sweden or Norway around, and then I get to drag out a couple of papers dispelling the myth. Interestingly, all the aforementioned countries were once strongly capitalist - especially the Netherlands. Anyway, countries like Hong Kong, Singapore, even Taiwan, are examples of countries that lean towards laissez-faire and prosper accordingly. -Jon
Dubai is doing good too.
The countries you mentioned are wonderful proof that libertarianism works, or atleast that the less government involvement in the economy there is, the more prosperity there is. (They aren't perfect unfortunately)
Strange I don't hear much about these countries in the Dutch media, or learn about them in the Dutch socialist education system...
The Netherlands is on the top 15 countries of Heritage's economic freedom index. Our only metric of the success of a country is to compare it to other countries, so it makes no sense to use a country with a lot of relative freedom to show that government is good.
Equality before the law and material equality are not only different but are in conflict with each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time. -- F. A. Hayek in The Constitution of Liberty
Is there any question about whether more freedom is better than less? As far as ranking which states have more freedom, it is like asking whether you would like to walk to the gallows or run. All things being equal I would prefer to walk but the result is the same. Therefore the only choice that interests me is to do neither.
Jon Irenicus:.. People usually throw Sweden or Norway around, and then I get to drag out a couple of papers dispelling the myth.
People usually throw Sweden or Norway around, and then I get to drag out a couple of papers dispelling the myth.
Would you mind sharing them with us? I run across those Scandinavia-type arguments quite often as well, so every help would be appreciated.
It's this one and this one.
Appears to be valuable stuff on first glance, thanks a lot.
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