From the british tv comedy show Big Train
Good libertarian message. Can't think for yourself?: become a government parasite.
"Double the price of petrol. That will force everyone out of their cars! Less pollution. Less crowds! Get to work in half the time!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcAqR-Hs9II
Yeah, if someone equated my military service to being a parasite to my face we'd be fighting...
What was your "service" and how is it different than other government jobs?
I'm sure you think you are exceptional. But many of us have taken government jobs and know that it is not necessary to anyone even if it pays.
JohnSchreimann:What was your "service" and how is it different than other government jobs?
Because it's a valuable service. There's two kinds of government jobs. Those that are valuable services that shouldn't be done by the government and that free markets would provide, and those that are inherently agression and shouldn't be done by anybody. A lot of them, millitary and police, for example, are just and proper jobs in and of themselves, but when done by government become a mixture of good and evil.
Would you make the same complaint about firemen, that they are just parasites? Or do you agree that we'd still need firemen in a free market, and that those that work for government are still doing a legitimate service, even if it is within an illigitimate framework? Do you think that a free society would not need military services?
The state won't go away once enough people want the state to go away, the state will effectively disappear once enough people no longer care that much whether it stays or goes. We don't need a revolution, we need millions of them.
histhasthai: JohnSchreimann:What was your "service" and how is it different than other government jobs?Those that are valuable services that shouldn't be done by the government and that free markets would provide, and those that are inherently agression and shouldn't be done by anybody.
But judging within the military itself you could sort out jobs of this nature. Add to it the fact that the military has overhead and bureaucratic office workers that are as useless as any other type of government work. How can some sacred and some not if government is labeled as "service"? Though, military people seem to be the only ones who can say that word after they get done with the job no matter what they've done.
In defence of Big Train, the joke was not so much a political statement as an observation that the British army draws a disproportionate number of people from broken homes and with troubled histories looking to belong. It was both a worry and a regret that our defence relies on such people.
JohnSchreimann:But judging within the military itself you could sort out jobs of this nature...
I'm not sure what you meant by all that. The point is that there's two distinct issues that need to be evaluated separately: the legitimate service of military defense, and the illigitimate use of coerced support it recieves under government - along with the inefficiencies, rent-seeking, and overstepping from defense into aggression that accompanies it.
I meant that the military includes aggression related jobs as well as supposedly needed jobs.
Using this fact, it stands that the military service can be parasitical. As well, they will attract the same type of people that any other type of useless government bureaucracy does because the military has useless jobs within its industry. This is the very same way that universities hire greatly needed professors like mathematics and law professors... but also hire fluff professors who would never have any business in such jobs if not for the deep pockets of government. This is just economics. That this will happen.
That doesn't mean that there are people there that aren't needed or that the Anonymous Coward was not important if he indeed did some heroic act or some legitimately needed service for the country. There is no need to fight, as it were. Though that seems irrational in itself. The military is not a monolith but a very big industry.
If the firefighters were a federally funded industry, you'd better believe they'd have parasites and become ridiculous quick. And how do we know they don't already have them? The Dept. of Homeland security has made a joke out of police forces by making it a federally funded operation. Eventhough, like the military, this has turned into a nightmare in terms of the tactics they apply and probable inability to reverse trends in the future. But still, "police force" is now a big pork barrell program to hire more parasites in offices and more buildings for them to work in. I'm sure the old school cops are pretty well aware of what is happening to their work (though not all cops are particularly bright or even decent).
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
krevno: In defence of Big Train, the joke was not so much a political statement as an observation that the British army draws a disproportionate number of people from broken homes and with troubled histories looking to belong. It was both a worry and a regret that our defence relies on such people.
This is not just a problem of Britain. It is not just a problem of the army. It is a permanent problem for any governmental bureaucracy.
JohnSchreimann: it stands that the military service can be parasitical. [...] That doesn't mean that there are people there that aren't needed
it stands that the military service can be parasitical. [...]
That doesn't mean that there are people there that aren't needed
It sounds like we don't really have a dispute here, then, except perhaps one of emphasis.
I am an Anarcho-Capitalist, yet I plan on joining the Marine Corps after college. Why? I love firearms and would love to learn how to use them. The stolen money to pay off my college loans wouldn't be too bad either. If I am sent to Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, or any country comrade Obama feels necessary to invade I will do anything in my power not to violate the property rights(the only rights) of others. If there was an oppurtunity to defend the flawed constitution I would do that too.
"The plans differ; the planners are all alike"
-Bastiat
Equating military servicemen to government parasites doesn't sit well with me at all. The joke was in bad taste, especially on D-Day.
It's highly offensive, but I find non-drafted soldiers to be hired murderers for the state. They do not deserve to have some arbitrary moral distinction made. The altruistic view of the military which assumes that soldiers are necessarily brave and virtous is nationalistic and nonsensical. Merely having a uniform on or wearing a funny hat does not magically change the moral character of a man. Of course, perhaps a greater degree of blame can be placed on the "higher-ups", but I reject the common view which essentially entirely exempts soldiers from moral responsibility for their actions.
Brainpolice:I reject the common view which essentially entirely exempts soldiers from moral responsibility for their actions.
I do too, but it doesn't change the fact that the profession of soldiering is not inherently immoral, nor the fact that the majority the actual actions of even US military members is, aside from where they get their paychecks from, virtuous. It's not the funny hat that makes it so, it's the nature of what they do. The fact that a good part of what the US military does do is illegitimate does not change that.
To claim that they're all nothing but parasites and murders is to make the same categorical error as to claim that they are all nothing but virtuous.
ChaseCola:I am an Anarcho-Capitalist, yet I plan on joining the Marine Corps after college. Why? I love firearms and would love to learn how to use them.
At the Appleseed Rifle Shoot I attended a couple weekends ago, something like half of the 45 attendees were Army or Marine Corps veterans. They ALL agreed that the training at the Appleseed weekend was light years ahead of their military training, and NONE of the veterans actually shot a qualifying score that weekend (210 or better on the "Quick -n- Dirty AQT"). With an Appleseed or two under your belt, and a little perseverence, you'll be able consistently to make body shots at 500m and head shots at 250m from the prone position, using a rack-grade rifle and iron sights--no scope needed. And all it costs is $70 and two days of your time!
The USMC will keep you for a minimum of four years, pay you squat during that time, and forcibly reenlist you at the end of it through their "stop-loss" program. If you deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan, which is virtually guaranteed, you'll almost certainly come home with post-traumatic stress, possibly bad enough to end in suicide.
Dude, don't do it. You'll learn to shoot better at an Appleseed. You'll make more money at Walmart, for crying out loud. And no matter what job you get, it's extremely unlikely to get you shot, ruin your life with PTSD, or end in suicide.
--Len
I will have completed college and would go through OCS and get officer pay, which starts at 40k. I know It's guaranteed I will be deployed, because Obama is a warmonger as well(at least I will get combat pay). Only like a third of troops get PTSD plus Im too tough for that(lol jk). They will pay for my college loans as well. I know there are plenty of private training programs, such as Blackwater, and others. But I don't think that can compare with the constant training that you recieve in the military. With an understanding of rights I will treat the civilians with respect and understand I am part of an occupation.
If your goal is to learn how to shoot then you'll probably be disappointed.
In the three years or so I spent in the 82nd Airborne I can't remember seeing our lieutenant ever firing at any of the live fire training courses we did, and we did a lot.
You see, that's not really their job. They are supposed to coordinate the movements of the various elements and are hardly ever (never) on the firing line.
Plus, we mostly did squad live fires and they would always get tapped to be a range safety. Platoon level they may have been able to pop off a few rounds but company or higher they had their ears glued to the radio handset and I doubt they even bothered locking and loading.
This is in an infantry company mind you, if you were in some pogue unit you'll only see the range once a year to qualify.
Combat is different, probably have ample opportunity to fire your rifle—but words can't even come close to describing how bad is sucks to have 30+ people shooting at you while watching RPG rounds bounce across the road in front of your truck. Major suckage there. Only good thing is I was about three feet off the bumper of the gun truck in front of me and the .50 cal kept their heads down. The two trucks behind me got hit by RPGs though.
Nobody died on that one but I've been on a few convoys where the convoy either directly in front of us or the one right behind lost people. They generally didn't mess with us too much because they loved to shoot up the fuel convoys so they would usually let us pass and hit the tankers.
So there you go...think about that before you go off and sign your life away for eight years.
Plus the fact this is a bullsh*t war which is the reason I'm no longer in the military...well, literally since the reserve unit I was in didn't know where I was while I was off war profiteering and discharged me for some odd reason. Not that I'm complaining.
Oh, and for all you haters, you ever consider that someone may have had a life before they saw the light?
ChaseCola:With an understanding of rights I will treat the civilians with respect and understand I am part of an occupation.
If you undestand that you're part of an occupation, then you realize you have no more right to self-defense while you're in Iraq than a burglar does while he's in your house. Do you really think that when they plunk you down in the middle of an exchange with insurgents that you'll throw down your arms and surrender like you should? Knowing they'll probably shoot you where you stand, or take you and kill you later on video?
There's just NO WAY to be a compassionate occupier. It can't be done. They'll constantly put you in the position that you must either murder or die.
Ludwig von Mises Institute | 518 West Magnolia Avenue | Auburn, Alabama 36832-4528
Phone: 334.321.2100 · Fax: 334.321.2119
contact@Mises.org | webmaster | AOL-IM MainMises
Mises.org sitemap