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So Rothbard is okay with taking government money?

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So Rothbard is okay with taking government money?

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Sonik posted on Mon, Feb 28 2011 10:25 PM

Please tell me I'm missing something.
I've gotten into heated debates over this, specifically government grants for musicians.

While pooping, I thumbed through the Ethics Of Liberty and stumbled up to chapter 24...

 

THE MORAL STATUS OF RELATIONS TO THE STATE

...This means that it cannot be unjust or immoral to fail to pay taxes to the State, to appropriate the property of the State (which is in the hands of aggressors), to refuse to obey State orders, or to break contracts with the State (since it cannot be unjust to break contracts with criminals). Morally, from the point of view of proper political philosophy, “stealing” from the State, for example, is removing property from criminal hands, is, in a sense, “homesteading” property, except that instead of homesteading unused land, the person is removing property from the criminal sector of society—a positive good...

 

Okay, so I'm a stand up guy if I get some tax money for myself? Did Murray just give me a green flag to appropriate a music grant?..

 

I'm at odds with myself on this one.

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Micah71381 replied on Thu, Mar 3 2011 7:13 PM

 

All this does is make the best of a bad situation, practically speaking.

An excellent way to phrase it.  An anarchist accepting handouts from the government is making the best out of a bad situation.  Kudos on this.

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Daniel James Sanchez replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 11:25 AM

Hot off the presses: an article by Walter Block posted today on this very topic.

I urge you to apply for all of the grants you possibly can. Murray Rothbard said that a man’s contribution to society is proportional to the profits he earns. I say in similar vein, other things equal, the more money you take from the coffers of the state the better libertarian you are.

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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J.R.M. replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 12:44 PM

Hot off the presses: an article by Walter Block posted today on this very topic.

Great article on the subject!

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liberty student replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 2:07 PM

Daniel James Sanchez:

Hot off the presses: an article by Walter Block posted today on this very topic.

Disappointing.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Laotzu del Zinn replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 8:37 PM

I mean, really it's impossible to pass on state favors and stay a functioning member of society.   You would never be able to use a non-toll road.  You wuold have to dispose of your garbage and waste yourself.  You couldn't get your bills sent to you through the mail (which is a little easier now, with direct deposit and online bill pay.  You probably couldn't use the internet, the state has its hand all over it.

This could go on for days.  So, is there a problem taking favors from the state?  It depends on how you approach it, imo.  If you're coming at it honestly; you pay your dues and don't manipulate the system to get more than you're owed, that seems much more respectable. 

In States a fresh law is looked upon as a remedy for evil. Instead of themselves altering what is bad, people begin by demanding a law to alter it. ... In short, a law everywhere and for everything!

~Peter Kropotkin

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Conza88 replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 9:21 PM

Hot off the presses: an article by Walter Block posted today on this very topic.

I urge you to apply for all of the grants you possibly can. Murray Rothbard said that a man’s contribution to society is proportional to the profits he earns. I say in similar vein, other things equal, the more money you take from the coffers of the state the better libertarian you are.

After reading the article, instead of the out of context quote... I felt differently. Fairly disingenuous.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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liberty student replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 10:02 PM

Epicurus ibn Kalhoun:
I mean, really it's impossible to pass on state favors and stay a functioning member of society.

They aren't favors.

Epicurus ibn Kalhoun:
If you're coming at it honestly; you pay your dues and don't manipulate the system to get more than you're owed, that seems much more respectable.

That's closer to my POV.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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liberty student replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 10:05 PM

I think Block's position is very poor and without principles.  Grants are welfare.  Telling libertarians they are better libertarians the more welfare they take is ridiculous.

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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Daniel James Sanchez replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 11:18 PM

Conza, do not accuse me of insincerity/deceitfulness for simply sharing a new relevant article and the concluding passage of the article.  I don't know what you found so out-of-context about the concluding passage, but I was not trying to mislead.  I have not even taken a position in this debate.  I would have shared a new article by a prominent Austrian relevant to a hot topic no matter what conlusion it arrived at.  Unclench.

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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Conza88 replied on Fri, Mar 11 2011 11:45 PM

I was merely pointing out that highlighting & providing only the conclusion without reference to the reasoning results in a completely different feeling / grasp of what it's about, for me anyway.

"I have not even taken a position in this debate."

Oh, my bad... I thought you had. Must have mistaken you with Catalan on that one. Apologies. Read it somewhere.

"Unclench."

That'd first require me to clench.

Ron Paul is for self-government when compared to the Constitution. He's an anarcho-capitalist. Proof.
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Daniel James Sanchez replied on Sat, Mar 12 2011 12:07 AM

Conza88:
"I have not even taken a position in this debate."

Oh, my bad... I thought you had. Must have mistaken you with Catalan on that one. Apologies. Read it somewhere.

You may have indeed read me speak to this issue in another thread a long time ago.  I do have a position, and it does happen to conincide more with Block's conclusion than with Liberty Student's.  But I wasn't engaged (or trying to engage) in the debate in this thread (the question doesn't interest me right now), and again, I would've shared what Block had to say about a hot topic in the forum no matter what conclusion he arrived at.  While I roughly agree with his conlusion, I don't even agree with how Block arrived at his conclusion, because I have a fundamentally different meta-ethical philosophy than Block.  So I wasn't posting the article to espouse its propositions, since I don't even agree with most of them.

Conza88:

I was merely pointing out that highlighting & providing only the conclusion without reference to the reasoning results in a completely different feeling / grasp of what it's about, for me anyway.

Nothing wrong with expressing your opinion about that; just do it without accusing me of insincerity/deceitfulness.

"the obligation to justice is founded entirely on the interests of society, which require mutual abstinence from property" -David Hume
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liberty student replied on Sat, Mar 12 2011 12:16 AM

Block's method is easy to live with.  Call ourselves libertarians and then act any old way we want.  It's not welfare when we take it!

"When you're young you worry about people stealing your ideas, when you're old you worry that they won't." - David Friedman
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