9/11 Conspiracy

After reading some post recently it has come to my attention that a number of the posters on these boards are supporters of the 9/11 conspiracy theory. This kind of perplexed me as I though that most Austrians were more supporters of the inept/inefficient view of government as opposed to the omniscient/malevolent view. While I agree that the government has used events in the past to raise support for its wars (i.e. USS Maine, Gulf of Tonkin) I do not believe that these things were premeditated but merely coincidence. In my mind the terrorist had the motive and the ability to carry out these attacks, and the only difference between these hijackings and ones in the past was the intended outcome. I also do not believe that the government is capable of orchestrating a cover up like this based just on the embarrassments this administration has faced in trying to spy on American citizens and being exposed by whistle blowers. While I dislike the government as much as the next guy, I am inclined to resort to Occam's Razor. I am eager to hear your take on the issue. 

I'm with you. 9/11 wasn't an inside job--but it WAS a golden opportunity.

--Len. 

I agree to a point.  I feel like I want to believe that 9/11 was not an inside job, therefore I have come to the same conclusions as above. I have also come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter (whether or not it was an inside job).  All the information that was needed to predict these attacks were in the hands of government agencies. Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution says, "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence." Our government is failing. Instead of fixing there failures, they ignore the fact that since the 1990’s illegal immigration has been increasing by the millions, including well over a half million foreign fugitives(possibly more terrorists). The government needs to stop worrying about how much and what we eat, how they are going to “bail out” multi-billion dollar companies and who much money to send to corrupt foreign governments and more time doing what it was created to do. TO PROTECT THE LIFE AND LIBERTY OF THE PEOPLE TO WHICH IT GOVERNS.

I also want to point out that conspiracy theories may draw attention away from the real culprit: blowback. Blowback is a documented and logical response to imperialism and has occurred countless times throughout history. 

Tbonesw:

I also want to point out that conspiracy theories may draw attention away from the real culprit: blowback. Blowback is a documented and logical response to imperialism and has occurred countless times throughout history. 

 

Agreed. The mass media often toss into one pile the people who support conspiracies, and those who argue for a better understanding of blowback, and then spin it so that both look like loonies.

The terrorists had sufficient motive to do what they did. The fact that to this day many people don't understand why they did it (blowback), is a great danger, and leaves much potential for manipulation of public opinion.

I am one of "those" guys.  That is I think that the World Trade Center towers were brought down by controlled demolition.  I base much of my thoughts on the matter on the work of Dr. Steven E. Jones.  I find that he makes a very strong case for explosives being planted in WTC 1, 2, and 7.  I would most certainly be open to reading more attempted refutations of his work.  I would change my postition on the matter if such a refutation successfully refuted his thesis and presented a plausable explanation as to why the towers fell without explosives.

One more thing...  I stand very much in the minorty among "Austrians" on this issue (as far as I can tell).

I'm not sure if your labels of the "view of government" are valid.  Individuals make up a group that call themselves "government."  All of these individuals are driven by their own self-interests and act as such.  The ineptness and inefficiency that goes along with many government programs has more to do with bureaucrats' motivations.  Are they motivated by market forces to serve the public or do they have other interests in mind?  Though the government seems to do an "excellent" job when it comes to raping, robbing, and slaughtering people.

 

After all, Rothbard does mention the New World Order in some of his works.  He also maintained that the Kennedy Assassination was a conspiracy.  Rothbard and Hoppe have also at times mentioned David Rockefeller and the Trilateral Commission (and the Council on Foreign Relations if I'm not mistaken).

 

Is it really so mind bogglingly absurd to think such "conspiratorial" happenings, of which they and others mention, may occur?

pazlenchantinrocks:

Is it really so mind bogglingly absurd to think such "conspiratorial" happenings, of which they and others mention, may occur?

 

I certainly don't deny conspiracies in general, and I think that the CFR plays a very important, and detrimental role in American foreign, and possibly domestic policy through their lobby powers. Having said that, in the particular case of 9/11, as much as the government took tremendous advantage of it to strip the rights of Americans, expand government, and start an unnecessary war, this does not hence mean that they conspired to committ 9/11, since as I've said the terrorists had more than sufficient motivation.

I still prefer to go by the maxim "Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity/incompetence".

pazlenchantinrocks:

I base much of my thoughts on the matter on the work of Dr. Steven E. Jones.

I have read Jones and seen him present his findings in person.  I have to say that Jones' conclusions appear to be very well researched and supported.  Based on Jones, I think there is a lot that we are not being told.  Whether this amounts to an "inside" job, I cannot say.  But, the federal government is certainly trying to keep the bodies buried...for whatever reason.  It was either a golden opportunity or a Reichstag.  I'm still trying to determine which.  

It definantely was NOT an inside job, it is silly and extremely illogical to think so. 

 

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Why worry about conspiracies when all the stuff right out in the open is troublesome enough?

The argument that the gov't could not have done it because the gov't is 'inefficient' I frankly regard as nonsense.

Gov't can't build things efficiently, but it can surely blow them up efficiently. I though that the history of the 20th century made that rahter obvious.

pazlenchantinrocks:

I am one of "those" guys.  That is I think that the World Trade Center towers were brought down by controlled demolition.  I base much of my thoughts on the matter on the work of Dr. Steven E. Jones.  I find that he makes a very strong case for explosives being planted in WTC 1, 2, and 7.  I would most certainly be open to reading more attempted refutations of his work.  I would change my postition on the matter if such a refutation successfully refuted his thesis and presented a plausable explanation as to why the towers fell without explosives.

 

Do you really believe that our governmnet is capable of deliberately constructing and executing a situation like 9/11.  Further, do you really believe they could do it without it ever being leaked?  Further, do you really believe George Bush, Cheney, and the like, wouldn't even want to do something like this? 

Don't get me wrong, I think Bush and the like are a bunch of morons who have no clue when it comes to understanding what's best for the people, i.e., understanding the beauty of freedom, but at the same time, do you really believe they're so evil as to actually want to knowingly kill people in order to spread their agenda.  I know the president has grown the state at a grotesque rate and for that, I regard him as an utterly horrible president.  But at the same time, I cannot put him at the same level as men like Hitler and Stalin. 

Hitler obviously had no qualms with killing people in order to further his agenda but I doubt the white house is willing to employ the same means.  We're simply not at that stage yet.  Despite the size of the state it's still rather disaggregated and unorganized thus meaning it is unable to efficiently carry out such intricate things as the conspiracies you speak of. 

I believe in conspiracy theories in the sense that I believe there are fundamental underlying directions which society moves in (e.g. the state grows gradually, taking more and more of the people's power) but it is very rare that "deliberate" consipiracy theories hold any truth.  

Anyone can find a way to believe in something if they really want to.  That's what has happened here.  It's human.  But seriously, use the logical side of your brain and think about what you're saying.

I think Bush and the like are a bunch of morons who have no clue when it comes to understanding what's best for the people, i.e., understanding the beauty of freedom, but at the same time, do you really believe they're so evil as to actually want to knowingly kill people in order to spread their agenda.

Well, what's going on in the middle east, exactly ? It seems to me that hundreds of thousands of people are being killed to further the agenda of the American gov't. Well perhaps the inhabitants of Iraq are not people ? Only americans killed in 911 qualify as people ?

edward_1313:

do you really believe they're so evil as to actually want to knowingly kill people in order to spread their agenda.

 

Absolutely. The neocons have already murdered hundreds of thousands to further their agenda (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.)  

As for 9/11, I have no idea if Bush/Cheney had any involvement with it, but I can't put it past them.  Something is seriously wrong with the whole situation.  Those "hijackers" simply could not have pulled something off like this alone.  9/11 becomes even more suspect when you look at the science behind the towers' falling on their footprints.  I don't claim to have the answers, I don't claim that anyone in particular in our government was involved, but I can't rule Bush/Cheney/other neocons out, and I can't help but look at the whole situation and just wonder.

Juan:

Well, what's going on in the middle east, exactly ? It seems to me that hundreds of thousands of people are being killed to further the agenda of the American gov't. Well perhaps the inhabitants of Iraq are not people ? Only americans killed in 911 qualify as people ?

 

The situation in the middle east is terribly different from 9/11.  It's laughable that you'd even try to compare the two.  There's nothing secretive about the war in Iraq, i.e., the people are aware that it's going on.  It's not a covert operation where the state has taken it upon themselves to execute something that the public  will never learn about.  

Further, I would say, to a certain extent, that Bush, etc. do view Americans as more human than they view non-Americans.  I think that's the case with many nationallistic people.  They view all others as outsiders, less human.  This is one reason why they can engage in war and not believe they're doing something harmful to humanity.  

I would also say that in a war each side believes the other side is wrong or evil and that helps each side to feel justified in killing the other side.  George Bush believes America is great, that democracy is great, and that Islam is evil.  

But when one is, or the group one is associated with,  willing to kill what he perceives as his own side in order to further an agenda; I would say you're talking about something on a whole new level.  

The nationalistic mentality that characterizes many of the neo-cons will indeed lead to war.  But it will not lead to the murder of their own people  in order justify the war!  This is a step which has yet to be taken and one which we are still a ways away from.    

Lastly, I would advise you to be careful when analyzing something from a conspiracy perspective.  Everything that the state does from taxation to war is evil and coercive, that I do not doubt.  But the state never "set out" to steal from the people.  It never "set out" to kill thousands in war and expand its empire.  While this is in fact what is happening it is not because the state has "conspired" for it be so.  It is because this is the natural evolution of the state.  

Reidbump:

 

As for 9/11, I have no idea if Bush/Cheney had any involvement with it, but I can't put it past them.  Something is seriously wrong with the whole situation.  Those "hijackers" simply could not have pulled something off like this alone.  9/11 becomes even more suspect when you look at the science behind the towers' falling on their footprints.  I don't claim to have the answers, I don't claim that anyone in particular in our government was involved, but I can't rule Bush/Cheney/other neocons out, and I can't help but look at the whole situation and just wonder.

Give me a break, you sound like a lunatic.  I'm sorry for the namecalling but it's ridiculous.  Why is it so difficult to believe that the "hijackers" were capable of doing something so horrific, but it's not so difficult to believe that the state constructed some intricate plan that would eventually lead to a justification for war!?  Give me a break.

I feel like there's something wrong with me in defending the state.  I'm not really defending the state per say, but the libertarian movement will have a lot of difficulty in gaining credit if everytime we say that the Fed is stealing our money, others perceive us to be saying that the Fed is deribately and knowingly stealing our money, like they're robbers burglarizing a house.  This is indeed what is happening, but it's not a cognitive or conscious process.  Bernanke isn't playing us all while him and his buddies sit in some back room and laugh together about how they're swindling the American people.  They're stealing from everyone, but they don't know they are, nor believe they are (in truth they're just a bunch of morons).  

This is the difference between what I call a "deliberate" or "cognitive" conspiracy theory and a sort natural conspiracy theory which isn't really a conspiracy theory at all. 

Interesting that the believers in the 19 men with boxcutters conspiracy theory site as their prime motivation that "govt would not have gotten away with it" in terms of any kind of inside involvement. I would have to agree with these individuals that govt is too inneficient, stupid, reckless, etc to pull it off without getting caught. But that's the point: They have been caught! The state apologists simply have not examined the hundreds of instances of leaks and contradictions of fact in the official account. It is disturbing (but not too surprising) that corporate media would sensor this information and even participate in perpetuating lies but it is out there for all to see.

Why is one conspiracy theory so much more outlandish/crazy than another? One involves men with both means and motive whilst the other blames patsies with neither. Have we already forgotten the Lusitania, the Reichstag, Pearl Harbor...? History will vindicate the truth.