The youtube video on his site with pelosi is mind-numbing.She uses her finger raised like a weapon. He didn't really focus her on the voluntarist aspects of minimum wage law. Spent too much time trying to back her into a corner with a double standard for interns and regular workers. I personally don't think he was very effective at persuading her, but an audience might have thought differently. She came across as really belligerent. Though I would also like to see Pelosi go up into a properly structured debate round with a construction period, cross examinations, and rebuttals, so that she can stop interrupting people and actually have to deal with what people are saying.I think socratic method's main weakness is it relies on arguing off whatever premises your opponent holds. Perhaps this is also its strength. But I think most people like Pelosi have a set of (false) premises and views about the world that can never lead them to libertarian conclusions.
"It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But the half-wit remains a half-wit and the emperor remains an emperor." ~Dream
I think I'm going to start telling democrats i'm socialist, then explain how government messes up welfare programs, and suggest we move to voluntary groups where members pool their money for social insurance ;)
You know what gets me irritated? When internet tough-guy communists call libertarianism a "ridiculous ideology".
A cynic is a man who, when he smells flowers, looks around for a coffin. - H.L. Mencken
Snowflake:I think socratic method's main weakness is it relies on arguing off whatever premises your opponent holds. Perhaps this is also its strength. But I think most people like Pelosi have a set of (false) premises and views about the world that can never lead them to libertarian conclusions.
Pelosi may hold certain premises, but she doesn't want to expose them to her constituents. She either has to lie (by refuting her own ideology) or expose herself.
Either way, critiquing Jan is not the point. I can do the Socractic method better than he can. I was simply providing an example.
The point isn't always to win someone over. Exposing someone like Pelosi is an opportunity to communicate with others.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
liberty student: Libertyandlife:Literally, how? I'd love to see more explanations on how to do this, or examples, it would probably be a very good tool for all us (debating with libertarianism in general). http://www.janhelfeld.com/ Jan is a minarchist, maybe even a Randian, but he does a great job grilling politicians with the socratic method. You have to be careful with the socratic method. Draw the subject's position out, but if they get upset, know when to back off. The socratic method (to me) is about triggering a crisis of reason in the subject. Pushing them back inward, questioning their own premises, and encouraging them to reason through their own beliefs. One problem is if you let the subject put you on the defensive, such as demanding that you justify freedom, or liberty. That you justify individualism, or to explain how anarchism/libertarianism would work. We can't know how it will work. That is a trap in argumentation. My fallback position is that no matter what the market produces, as long as it is voluntary, that is acceptable to me morally and ethically. Once I am sure that someone cannot answer any further (due to the stress of the crisis) or they answer in a manner that indicates they support violence, ends justify the means etc, then I abandon the debate. You cannot reason with someone who has a fundamentally unreasonable position. That position being, they believe in the individualism of their own action, but not the same principles for the actions of others. In my opinion, during debate, it is better to back off than burn out the opportunity to discuss again. You don't have to "win" an argument in a day, or even a month or year. The socratic method sows seeds that yield returns over time.
Libertyandlife:Literally, how? I'd love to see more explanations on how to do this, or examples, it would probably be a very good tool for all us (debating with libertarianism in general).
http://www.janhelfeld.com/
Jan is a minarchist, maybe even a Randian, but he does a great job grilling politicians with the socratic method.
You have to be careful with the socratic method. Draw the subject's position out, but if they get upset, know when to back off. The socratic method (to me) is about triggering a crisis of reason in the subject. Pushing them back inward, questioning their own premises, and encouraging them to reason through their own beliefs.
One problem is if you let the subject put you on the defensive, such as demanding that you justify freedom, or liberty. That you justify individualism, or to explain how anarchism/libertarianism would work. We can't know how it will work. That is a trap in argumentation. My fallback position is that no matter what the market produces, as long as it is voluntary, that is acceptable to me morally and ethically.
Once I am sure that someone cannot answer any further (due to the stress of the crisis) or they answer in a manner that indicates they support violence, ends justify the means etc, then I abandon the debate. You cannot reason with someone who has a fundamentally unreasonable position. That position being, they believe in the individualism of their own action, but not the same principles for the actions of others.
In my opinion, during debate, it is better to back off than burn out the opportunity to discuss again. You don't have to "win" an argument in a day, or even a month or year. The socratic method sows seeds that yield returns over time.
I need to brush up on the Socratic Method. I don't think I am very good at it. I'd like to refine that technique though, it seems like a good way to argue things.
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
I am stunned you are just now getting pissed off about political opinions.
Here, how about a recent one: Death Panels
Because, you know, you and I will just sit back while some panel decides that it is time for our loved ones to take that big Freedom Nap. Of course, politicians could run on a platform where they promise to kill 1/3 fewer relatives if they are elected.
And then there is the old, "Democrats will take your guns away," because that is what they always do. Every single time a democrat is elected, I have to turn in another gun.
How about retroactive immunity for lawbreakers?
How about holding up a vial of air and asking everyone to imagine it was something different, and using that as an excuse to go to war?
How about Alaska's "unique proximity" which affords it a front row seat to some of the major geopolitical happenings in the world. I guess that would be in contrast to other states, which have common proximities, and have to rely on television and the Internet for their happenings.
The list is endless
Many people are incapable of thinking outside of their own small mental box. Ive found it better to approach the whole matter as a sort of 'sport' or 'diversion' (since I'm unlikely to change the minds of such individuals. In actuality, they aren't using their minds - - but only their emotions.) If they are a hardcore 'true believer' Dem or Rep, 'left' or 'right' - I may start out by saying I don't trust the lawyer/liar/politicians from either party. Then I give examples of how 'their guy' carried out the same policies as 'the other guy' when he was in office. - - If we are speaking about the economy and they attack capitalism, I often say something like "Too bad we don't actually give capitalism a try for once." and back that up with facts about how a system with a central bank monopoly, favored 'too big to fail' corporations who privatize profits & socialize losses, and politicians paid off with campaign contributions and other types of loot sure ain't free market capitalism. - - By this time, theyre usually in shell shock or have wandered off mumbling. - -
If its someone I actually care about convincing (such as friend or family) I use a more gentle and Socratic method to guide them 'into the light'. :)
I find talking politics with non libertarians to be quite irritating.I often get into internet debates with leftists like on bebo theres a site about politics and basically all of them their are leftists and so i'm almost always on the defensive,it's so draining at times.
the strategy i usually use is the blunt approach -I'm beginning to think it's not the winning style- i basically say outright the government is a criminal,taxes are theft,democracy is bad etc etc. this tends to scary people i'm arguing with for some reason,especially leftists who recoil in horror at such an idea as democracy being anything less than holy.This approach isn't good because it puts them on the defensive they start saying i hate the poor,i'm uncaring,i'm a robot, i'm a conspiracy theorist, i'm a statist!? or that i think about only myself.I even got told that my opposition to ww2 meant i had insulted the jews from the holocaust!. I have had some victories with this approach though -I managed to once make this vaguely lefty woman at college interested in libertarianism,i managed with other people of various beliefs to make an anarcho-communist admit capitalism had some good features and now this person regularly says this ,I got a conservative to like lots of points i made on free market education not the wishy washy voucher kind and i found some kind of statist agreeing with me on criticism's i made of government healthcare.
My thoughts on better approaches than above - which I will try to use in future- and a few points to remember are this:-
a. point out government doesn't achieve that goal b. point out it uses violence to try to achieve it c. point out it makes the problem worse.
the reasons i think people are statist is due to indoctrination in schools, colleges and universities- classes like politics,history,sociology,economics are often very state loving.Weirdly my college english language class teacher often comes across with statist leftist views making us read about radical feminism and later we're going to do obama.
people also are brainwashed by the mainstream media -particularly newspapers and the tv news .people awash in our socialist lvoing culture which makes people have a love affair with handouts,theft and other immorality are never given the chance to hear anti-state views and thus they grow up in ignorance -its that old thing of if you never heard any opposing views you aren't aware their are any .thats why at least making anti-state views heard,if not accepted is vital.
I hope i've not bored people to death with this long comment.
Me (quoting H.L. Mencken): "I believe that all government is evil, and that trying to improve it is largely a waste of time."Person 1: I'm sorry, but to think that the "government is evil" is just a dumb thing to think ... You know I like you personally, but that libertarian idea is simply nonsensical ... the only reason we have a decent society is because of government, capitalism can't even exist without government ... a totally free market isn't possible, w/out government there would be no property rights.
Person 2 (internet tough-guy communist): http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/billie_joe34/YoungLibertarian.jpg
Gonna go rip my hair out, brb.
Snowflake: I think I'm going to start telling democrats i'm socialist, then explain how government messes up welfare programs, and suggest we move to voluntary groups where members pool their money for social insurance ;)
Is it bad I think this is a good idea?
"Keynesianomics is a Ponzi scheme."
"You are correct in that Capitalism does not help with poverty, because it eliminates poverty altogether..."
"That wonderful strawman: greed."
Inequality bad.
I think free market libertarianism (and related groups of thought) are in a way a form of socialism, because it is an alternative to mainstream economic view, its goal is redistribution of wealth, making life fair. Except the process towards these goals is completely different, and it actually is logical.
"Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom." Soren Kierkegaard
My most amusing conversations have been with my father. He talks about needing to regulate business. I call him a statist (I also go on to explain why hes wrong, but that a story for a different day). He refuses the title and says he is a capitalist. I ask him how he is one if he doesn't support free markets. He says he wants a free market, but that its unrealistic and that regulations must be in place. So, by his logic, even though he acts like a statist, holds statistideas, and votes in a statist fashion, hes not a statist because he says so.
Perhaps if I wear a superman name-tag, I'l be able to fly.
"Thats no law, thats just a sword. Happens I got one too"
Him:
and i suppose you and your army of doctors are going to prove the FDA wrong kris?
lol kris...i dont need to do research to realize that the legalization of marijuana is just plain and outright STUPID.....do you realize the effect that would have on the economy alone? i mean even if it WAS legal...you KNOW the government would just tax it tremendously...and what the fuck do we need Americans spending money on? DRUGS???? are you ... Read Moreout of your mind?!?!?!?! half the country is struggling to put FOOD on the table, and you're proposing that we spend money on something as useless and profitless as Marijuana? NOT ONLY does it DESTROY farm-land to the point of non-usability, but it causes tremendous health and addiction problems....another thing we Americans don't need, ESPECIALLY when Obama is imposing a conformist reform to the health care system....After having a debate on weather Marijuana is "harmful" or not.
kris...you poke fun at it, but while you are high your muscles are weaker, your response time to stimulus (good and bad) ir DRASTICALLY slower, and most of the time you cant even stay awake....as for the first part of your mockery....youre absolutely right...those drugs SHOULD be banned...but i can guarantee you the increased use of marijuana will ... Read Moreonly cause deaths due to those real-life situations will increase....not only that, but MJ is also considered a "gateway" drug....tell me kris..what happens when you can't say "enough is enough"? people will continue to use it because of its mentally addictive effect...AND will be more likely to get involved with STRONGER drugs....in other words: once you place the straw on the camel's back and it falls....it will not be able to get back up....it will only sink deeper until it is crushed to the point of nonexistence.....not that im saying everyone will get hooked on MJ and that will lead to them doing Meth and the entire population is going to die...simply that they are
Me:
Its funny how there hasn't actually been any reported cases of death caused by THC. Marijuana isn't a gateway drug. The people that get into other drugs, are usually already into other things like tobacco and alcohol, and are trying it because its illegal. Also, Marijuana is the hardest for addicts to smoke because, it isn't chemically addicting at all. ... Read MoreStop eating the U.S's propaganda of MJ. You dislike liberals don't you? Well that mentality is the same as all the ignorant people against Marijuana. You think that because of those minor reasons The Federal War on Drugs should continue? As well as the raiding of people's homes, billions of tax dollars, and a way to fund gangs and organized crime?
kris kris kris...have you learned NOTHING from me?...you lost me at :"you dislike liberals dont you?"....i mean c'mon kris, get with the program..get out from under your little hermit shell and come to realize the government is not the big bad wolf...you dont understand that as soon as you start to bash FACTS AND RESEARCH done by hundreds more scientists with a greater knowledge of chemistry than you will ever have....you start to sound ignorant yourself...
Apparently, we Miseneans and Libertarians live under a shell, and don't do anything with our lives, because the Austrian school isn't even a legit Economic study, unless it was founded by an actual Economist who did the research and conducted experiments himself.
Except for the fact that I can find hundreds of sources from doctors and studied that prove he is wrong.
Just watch the movie "The Union" for lots of sources.
Everyone thinks that Business needs to be regulated. Even my grandpa thinks that Free Enterprise needs Government supervision.
The reason everyone believes that businesses need to be regulated is because they believe it's common sense. Why NOT stop the big bad rich guy from hurting the poor little man out on his luck.
I had this logic when I was 8.
Dialogue from...a very deranged person:
"We have models on what you should do in a crisis like this. What should have been done is first nationalize the banks, secondly pass a much larger stimulus ... I'm just listening to you know, people with nobel prizes in economics. Clearly GLENN BECK knows more ... The Stimulus should have been written better to spend more money on infrastructure which would make our major cities more competitive with their global rivals. This is essential for Chicago and NY to compete in the future with Singapore, Dubai, Hong Kong, and Tokyo ... tax cuts were a waste ... in a crisis of confidence people will save, which is what you don't want short term ... long term you can raise taxes on the upper echelons of society. In the 60s and the 90s two of America's greatest growth periods top income taxes were higher. There isn't empirical data suggesting that tax cuts on the upper class actually do that much to stimulate the economy. The 1980s recovery were because the Fed kept interest rates high for a while, than they lowered them, once they were lowered the recovery began. ... and the early 2000s recovery was once again created by a new asset bubble ... The Government has proven to be effective at nationalizing financial institutions both at home and abroad. S&L was successful, as was the Swedish nationalization, they were able to re privatize once what needed to be done was done."
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0807d.asp
Reaching Out to the Left, Part 1: The Basics
quite an interesting article about approaching leftists on libertarian issues.
if someone would post a list of liberal, socialists, and or communists forums, then we could team up and tag team troll them, and come back here and report our more spectacular pwnages, should be great fun.
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