Lilburne:LM under Raico
I definitely wouldn't complain. Or Thomas Woods [ I don't know if he teaches though, I've never heard him bring it up, which leads me to wonder what he does for a day job, I mean I know he has written several books but I wonder what else he does] Or Joseph Stromberg [ excellent historian ] or David Gordon who is a universal genius. History is perhaps the most underrated field at LvMi I think.
'It is difficult to imagine any normal person wishing to meet Marx for a third time.' - Alexander Gray, The Socialist Tradition
Wes Cooper: Sorry for all the posts, but I am excited about the concept! I want to bring up that with some of the latest Cloud Computing technologies (namely Azure) and utilizing in-browser client-side tools like Silverlight, the licensing and bandwidth costs for a very rich multi-media university could be kept very small.
Sorry for all the posts, but I am excited about the concept! I want to bring up that with some of the latest Cloud Computing technologies (namely Azure) and utilizing in-browser client-side tools like Silverlight, the licensing and bandwidth costs for a very rich multi-media university could be kept very small.
Surely relying on linux and entirely open-source technology would be both cheaper, safer, and closer to the spirit of liberty?
If you try to trick the market, it will get its revenge.
Solreyus
I had thought about this a few months back and I like that other people are interested. I am a bit pessimistic that LvMI will take this up, especially without a better plan. How many people will pay for a degree from a non-accredited school? I don't like the idea of complying with state regulations, but probably some thought needs to go toward meeting accreditation standards.
Anyhow, I found some resources:
All of JOLT's articles are online and I skimmed through a couple that seemed relevant. link link 2
What some said about losing out on face-to-face time is silly. There are just other considerations for online learning. link
1. Advise students not to be to quick to enroll in a full course of online study. They should first introduce themselves to the use of technology by enrolling in an elective course offered over the Internet. Generally these courses require less commitment to time and study and will give a "first timer" an approximate means of gauging how well they will perform in future classes. The advice given should be, "don’t bite off more than you can chew." 2. Next, these classes tend to circumvent scheduling problems by allowing learners to make choices as to where and when they study and participate. This can also be the Achilles heel for some of the more disorganized in the student population. It’s just too easy to put off study with all the freedom technology provides. Perhaps the biggest problem is going to be letting tasks and time get away. A high degree of time management skills are needed for assured success. These skills are a absolute necessity and as such should be stressed over and over. 3. A big part of computer-mediated education is making the student more responsible for self-learning. Instructors in the online environment facilitate, leaving the student to find their own way. Some students like the idea of having an instructor meeting and leading class discussion with them at a regular time. In the virtual classroom students instructors come and go at all hours. Some learners are sure to discover that this form of communication is difficult for them. How well they do at learning on their own will have a significant bearing on performance. 4. Enough cannot be stressed about the students ability to navigate around the Internet. Using a variety of search engines and database managers is a prerequisite for most courses. Knowing how to use the World Wide Web, Newsgroups, FTP and e-mail for research and study are all part of the necessary tools a student should possess. A few weeks of navigation using the free demo time provided by Internet service provders service will get some of the weaker student’s pointed in the right direction. Still, it is suggested that proficiency tests be administered to any student who shows an interest in a computer-mediated class.
1. Advise students not to be to quick to enroll in a full course of online study. They should first introduce themselves to the use of technology by enrolling in an elective course offered over the Internet. Generally these courses require less commitment to time and study and will give a "first timer" an approximate means of gauging how well they will perform in future classes. The advice given should be, "don’t bite off more than you can chew."
2. Next, these classes tend to circumvent scheduling problems by allowing learners to make choices as to where and when they study and participate. This can also be the Achilles heel for some of the more disorganized in the student population. It’s just too easy to put off study with all the freedom technology provides. Perhaps the biggest problem is going to be letting tasks and time get away. A high degree of time management skills are needed for assured success. These skills are a absolute necessity and as such should be stressed over and over.
3. A big part of computer-mediated education is making the student more responsible for self-learning. Instructors in the online environment facilitate, leaving the student to find their own way. Some students like the idea of having an instructor meeting and leading class discussion with them at a regular time. In the virtual classroom students instructors come and go at all hours. Some learners are sure to discover that this form of communication is difficult for them. How well they do at learning on their own will have a significant bearing on performance.
4. Enough cannot be stressed about the students ability to navigate around the Internet. Using a variety of search engines and database managers is a prerequisite for most courses. Knowing how to use the World Wide Web, Newsgroups, FTP and e-mail for research and study are all part of the necessary tools a student should possess. A few weeks of navigation using the free demo time provided by Internet service provders service will get some of the weaker student’s pointed in the right direction. Still, it is suggested that proficiency tests be administered to any student who shows an interest in a computer-mediated class.
I would be willing to pay for courses, but couldn't be a full time student. It seems like we would have people from all over the globe and with varying amounts of college credits. I don't know if the teachers we would want even have extra time to teach a class or two each semester.
Finally, what degrees would be offered?
Economics
Political History
Legal Philosophy (my main interest)
Why does many a man write? Because he does not possess enough character not to write. ---Karl Kraus.
E. R. Olovetto: I don't like the idea of complying with state regulations, but probably some thought needs to go toward meeting accreditation standards.
I don't like the idea of complying with state regulations, but probably some thought needs to go toward meeting accreditation standards.
I would have to disagree here. If we focus on meeting accreditation standards that were influenced at all through politics, bureaucracy, and coercion, then we might end up falling into the same abyss that the current system is in. The more rules and standards we apply, the less efficient we make the market. The market and market competition would set the standards just as it does with other products. Education isn't any different in this regard.
Only ideas can overcome ideas...
krazy kaju: I would dump my college in a millisecond if this were possible. It could be hosted at MisesUniversity.org or (maybe) MisesUniversity.edu or Mises.edu. Who knows? Maybe it doesn't even have to be accredited. If Mises University could get a good name in the private sector, who would need state accreditation?
I would dump my college in a millisecond if this were possible. It could be hosted at MisesUniversity.org or (maybe) MisesUniversity.edu or Mises.edu. Who knows? Maybe it doesn't even have to be accredited. If Mises University could get a good name in the private sector, who would need state accreditation?
I agree. After all, I thought this was about starting a university that is developed based on market demand and not based on the same rules and standards that state funded universities use. Rules and standards are inherent in the price system. The market will set the standard.
Last night (early this morning) I emailed this thread to Gary North, as he has written extensively on universities and getting around the accreditation cartels.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alewrockwell.com+%22gary+north%22+accreditation
He sent this back over. I don't know how pertinent it is, but perhaps someone might want to take a look at it.
Lowest Cost Colleges
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Wade: krazy kaju: I would dump my college in a millisecond if this were possible. It could be hosted at MisesUniversity.org or (maybe) MisesUniversity.edu or Mises.edu. Who knows? Maybe it doesn't even have to be accredited. If Mises University could get a good name in the private sector, who would need state accreditation? I agree. After all, I thought this was about starting a university that is developed based on market demand and not based on the same rules and standards that state funded universities use. Rules and standards are inherent in the price system. The market will set the standard.
I second that. Start from scratch. A totally new concept. A totally new product, like nothing that's been done before....
"It would be preposterous to assert apodictically that science will never succeed in developing a praxeological aprioristic doctrine of political organization..." (Mises, UF, p.98)
E. R. Olovetto: I had thought about this a few months back and I like that other people are interested. I am a bit pessimistic that LvMI will take this up, especially without a better plan. How many people will pay for a degree from a non-accredited school? I don't like the idea of complying with state regulations, but probably some thought needs to go toward meeting accreditation standards. Anyhow, I found some resources: MERLOT MERLOT Pedagogy Portal Journal of Online Learning and Teaching All of JOLT's articles are online and I skimmed through a couple that seemed relevant. link link 2 What some said about losing out on face-to-face time is silly. There are just other considerations for online learning. link 1. Advise students not to be to quick to enroll in a full course of online study. They should first introduce themselves to the use of technology by enrolling in an elective course offered over the Internet. Generally these courses require less commitment to time and study and will give a "first timer" an approximate means of gauging how well they will perform in future classes. The advice given should be, "don’t bite off more than you can chew." 2. Next, these classes tend to circumvent scheduling problems by allowing learners to make choices as to where and when they study and participate. This can also be the Achilles heel for some of the more disorganized in the student population. It’s just too easy to put off study with all the freedom technology provides. Perhaps the biggest problem is going to be letting tasks and time get away. A high degree of time management skills are needed for assured success. These skills are a absolute necessity and as such should be stressed over and over. 3. A big part of computer-mediated education is making the student more responsible for self-learning. Instructors in the online environment facilitate, leaving the student to find their own way. Some students like the idea of having an instructor meeting and leading class discussion with them at a regular time. In the virtual classroom students instructors come and go at all hours. Some learners are sure to discover that this form of communication is difficult for them. How well they do at learning on their own will have a significant bearing on performance. 4. Enough cannot be stressed about the students ability to navigate around the Internet. Using a variety of search engines and database managers is a prerequisite for most courses. Knowing how to use the World Wide Web, Newsgroups, FTP and e-mail for research and study are all part of the necessary tools a student should possess. A few weeks of navigation using the free demo time provided by Internet service provders service will get some of the weaker student’s pointed in the right direction. Still, it is suggested that proficiency tests be administered to any student who shows an interest in a computer-mediated class. I would be willing to pay for courses, but couldn't be a full time student. It seems like we would have people from all over the globe and with varying amounts of college credits. I don't know if the teachers we would want even have extra time to teach a class or two each semester. Finally, what degrees would be offered? Economics Political History Legal Philosophy (my main interest)
Olovetto:
Maybe something like this could change the way we think about degrees. Maybe completion of courses or coursework in such a new educational framework would come to represent something better and more noble than State education. Looking back on my life, would I rather have attended the university I did for four years, or attended Mises's own seminars for four years? Also, look what (and who) came out of those seminars, where the focus was on all the important aspects of the science of man....
Possible areas of interest:
Political History (legal history, history of religion, etc...)
Legal philosophy
Ethics theory, of course...
Descriptive psychology (thymology?)
Generally, all areas of "Geistwissenschaft" (sp?) All areas related to the science of mind and/or man from a logical/rational point of view as opposed to a natural science point of view...
Fred Furash:Surely relying on linux and entirely open-source technology would be both cheaper, safer, and closer to the spirit of liberty?
Instead of debate the merits of the LAMP Stack vs Silverlight, I'll just concede for the moment and say, I don't care what we program it in as long as we get the best product in the end. Later, when it is more realistic, we can have that debate :-)
liberty student: Last night (early this morning) I emailed this thread to Gary North, as he has written extensively on universities and getting around the accreditation cartels. http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alewrockwell.com+%22gary+north%22+accreditation He sent this back over. I don't know how pertinent it is, but perhaps someone might want to take a look at it. Lowest Cost Colleges
Thanks LS.
A thought provoking article by North. Here's the direct link:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north748.html
I am not suggesting that we conform to all these but some of the standards for accreditation are just common sense. The ebay system sounds a bit hokey to me, and just saying that the market will set the standards is vague/careless. Yes, in some sense it will set standards. I want an Austro-libertarian education without having to abandon my business and move. If it is just a handful of random online seminars, that's fine. If you are talking about a formal education that hopes to maybe carry some positive reputation, you need some sort of rules/pedagogical method.
@AK: I was just trying to narrow down everything into less areas since the school doesn't exist yet. I still don't quite get what descriptive psychology is after reading this. Thymology fits under economics and other areas too I believe. You could definitely fit ethics/philosophy together, and I really think they are all connected. I remember that I found a school in Budapest that has a specialized Logic program. I guess we will just have to see how many students there are and how many teachers we can get...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisteswissenschaft
OK, maybe something like this makes sense. I am not a fan of Hegel, Weber, or Husserl though. I don't really know much about this stuff, so I am going to shut up for now. Someone should bug J. Tucker to find out if there is any chance of this happening.
Adam Knott:Generally, all areas of "Geistwissenschaft" (sp?) All areas related to the science of mind and/or man from a logical/rational point of view as opposed to a natural science point of view...
It all depends on what end the university is there for. If its there for you and people like you, then you have just stated exactly what should be offered. If it is truly Mises University, then it should focus on that and all the content and subjects that this whole site does.
If we're really out to revolutionize the higher-education system out from under the government, then if we build a forum where the market decides and influences what subjects and degrees are offered, I think we'll naturally attract the professors that sympathize with our goal. I'd let the market decide in the end. What does a paying student want to learn? What can a paid professors teach? What do employers want new employees to know? What does an entrepreneur need to know to start a business?
I recommend using the existing standards for Mises University as a starting point.
As for a degree program, there many that fit the Mises University model.
Dibs on history department!
Laughing Man: Students are what advance the cause.
Students are what advance the cause.
I understand that, and I didn't mean to imply that prominent Austro-libertarians shouldn't be acting as mentors to students. But the calibre of students that are likely to apply to a "Mises University" will undoubtedly be very low, and as such it will be a waste of time for productive scholars such as Walter Block to try and impart insights to such people. Why will the quality of applicants to an online Mises University be low? Because the really top-students who are serious about pursuing careers in academia are smart enough to know that attending an obscure institution in Auburn, Alabama isn't going to help them professionally. So they will aim to get into places like Harvard, Yale or Columbia (and pursue independent Austrian studies in their spare time).
Sukrit Sabhlok:Because the really top-students who are serious about pursuing careers in academia are smart enough to know that attending an obscure institution in Auburn, Alabama isn't going to help them professionally. So they will aim to get into places like Harvard, Yale or Columbia (and pursue independent Austrian studies in their spare time).
You are conflating a certain kind of practicality with intelligence. There are a great many students in the Ivy League who, while being academically proficient, are uninsightful dullards. And there are a great many students in no-name colleges and people who didn't even go to college who are brilliant. Many of the latter kind who are attracted to the Austrian tradition simply are not willing to make the intellectual and moral compromises necessary for untrammeled success in mainstream academia. A full Mises U. would draw in droves of such people.
Think outside of the establishment box, Sukrit!
Human Action Comics Issues 1-6
nirgrahamUK: Wow. I'm much flattered. To have direct access to advice, occasional tutelage and 'guidance' from a master like Salerno would encourage me to get serious and methodical with my studies, rather than my current haphazard approach...
Wow. I'm much flattered. To have direct access to advice, occasional tutelage and 'guidance' from a master like Salerno would encourage me to get serious and methodical with my studies, rather than my current haphazard approach...
That's how I've solved my problem. I'm doing an independent study in Austrian Economics for my senior year in high school. I was able to get Dr. Murphy to proctor it for me. I meet with him every so often, and I write papers on readings, etc.
Where I come from, the women don't glow, but the men definitely plunder.
That's wonderful, Murphy is a star! I wish you well in everything.
Where there is no property there is no justice; a proposition as certain as any demonstration in Euclid
Fools! not to see that what they madly desire would be a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring
revolutionist: I was able to get Dr. Murphy to proctor it for me. I meet with him every so often, and I write papers on readings, etc.
He has a witty humor. I'm sure he is a great professor.
I discussed this thread in a post I wrote for the Mises Blog highlighting recent discussions in this forum concerning lifelong learning. GMU economist Peter Boettke responded with an interesting counterpoint.
First here's the passage of mine which he responded to:
Lilburne: Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lot of students who have had the fortune to study directly under Block, Salerno and others at their current universities, going on to become strong voices for human freedom and Austrian Economics. I've heard Block and Raico in lectures express frustration at the overwhelming Commie tendencies of most of their students. I think most University students of these great men simply are deaf to their message.
Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lot of students who have had the fortune to study directly under Block, Salerno and others at their current universities, going on to become strong voices for human freedom and Austrian Economics. I've heard Block and Raico in lectures express frustration at the overwhelming Commie tendencies of most of their students. I think most University students of these great men simply are deaf to their message.
And here's his response:
Peter Boettke: I cannot speak to the situation with respect to Prof. Raico and Prof. Salerno, but I do think your description of the unfortunate situation with respect to Professor Block and his students is a mistake. During his time at Holy Cross, he influenced Ed Stringham and Andy Young so strongly that they are now professors at Trinity College and West Virginia University respectively. Since at Loyola he has had a stream of students go and earn PhDs and now teaching Austrian economics: Dan D'Amico, Jenny Dirmeyer, Emily Schaeffer, and former sudents are currently getting PhDs. Block, like Sennholz and Ebeling, has amassed an amazing record as an inspiring teacher. I think a good idea would be to build up the network of former students of the professors you highlight: Block, Raico and Salerno.
I cannot speak to the situation with respect to Prof. Raico and Prof. Salerno, but I do think your description of the unfortunate situation with respect to Professor Block and his students is a mistake. During his time at Holy Cross, he influenced Ed Stringham and Andy Young so strongly that they are now professors at Trinity College and West Virginia University respectively. Since at Loyola he has had a stream of students go and earn PhDs and now teaching Austrian economics: Dan D'Amico, Jenny Dirmeyer, Emily Schaeffer, and former sudents are currently getting PhDs.
Block, like Sennholz and Ebeling, has amassed an amazing record as an inspiring teacher.
I think a good idea would be to build up the network of former students of the professors you highlight: Block, Raico and Salerno.
And here's my response to that:
Lilburne: Hi Dr. Boettke, I'm sure that any former students of Dr. Block who were open-minded enough to be deeply influenced by him are superb. However, I think there would be many more like them if the medium through which Austrian professors and potential Austrian students found each other was more dynamic, loose, and customer-driven. I agree with you that Dr. Block is an amazing and effective teacher. In fact I think he is MORE amazing and effective than the results you refer to would signify. As grateful as we should be for those young scholars you rightly call attention to, I believe they are the tip of the iceberg of Dr. Block's potential. Lilburne
Hi Dr. Boettke,
I'm sure that any former students of Dr. Block who were open-minded enough to be deeply influenced by him are superb. However, I think there would be many more like them if the medium through which Austrian professors and potential Austrian students found each other was more dynamic, loose, and customer-driven.
I agree with you that Dr. Block is an amazing and effective teacher. In fact I think he is MORE amazing and effective than the results you refer to would signify. As grateful as we should be for those young scholars you rightly call attention to, I believe they are the tip of the iceberg of Dr. Block's potential.
Lilburne
FYI, Boettke has been a vocal advocate of traditional academia vs. "growth by other means" in regards to the Austrian tradition. He from time-to-time locks horns with Bob Murphy over this question.
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