General pro-school arguments

I also hated going to school at that age. Maybe for different reasons...

My little brother and I were reading fairly well and working on multiplication by the time I entered Kindergarten. I remember being very frustrated the first few years in school because I was forced to "learn" ABC's and basic addition & subtraction which I already knew how to do.

By late Elementary school and Jr. High I had given up on doing homework and would simply do the in class work and tests to keep my grades at average level. I didn't understand why I needed to do homework if I could learn the material by reading the textbook and practicing a few times in class.

I think at this point in my life I should have gotten a job. Maybe I would have learned the value of following rules and managing money. I think the independence and responsibility would have been a huge boost to my character.

By the time I was in High school I had completely checked out. I skipped classes, ignored homework, and rebelled against what I was being taught when I did attend; especially  in history, social studies, and economics classes.

My first job saved me and restored my confidence in my ability to learn and grow. Funny thing is the whole time I was "failing" or barely passing in school, I was reading about physics, politics, history, persuasion, economics, and a host of other things that most of my school aged friends never got a grasp on.

I bet this type of story is much more common than we would imagine. Government schools suck!

MatthewF:

 

My first job saved me and restored my confidence in my ability to learn and grow. Funny thing is the whole time I was "failing" or barely passing in school, I was reading about physics, politics, history, persuasion, economics, and a host of other things that most of my school aged friends never got a grasp on.

I bet this type of story is much more common than we would imagine. Government schools suck!

My story as well :)

I think since I've been at college I've noticed the indoctrination of public schools, I went to a private high school so I never went through it but I've noticed that the Americans hear love the founding Fathers, a Chinese floor mate said Mao Tse Dung was the greatest man who ever lived, everyone was joking behind his back how brainwashed he was, but they never look at themselves, but I guess that is how it is.

I've always felt public schools are full of bull, colleges seem better. Self education is the best method to understanding things on your own.

Libertyandlife:

I've always felt public schools are full of bull, colleges seem better. Self education is the best method to understanding things on your own.

Many colleges are public schools. And many of them are indeed chock full of BS. Self education, where possible, is indeed a wonderful way to go. That's how I'm getting into programming.

Zach_the_Lizard:

Many colleges are public schools. And many of them are indeed chock full of BS. Self education, where possible, is indeed a wonderful way to go. That's how I'm getting into programming.

One of my college buddies went to the same school as me. He graduated with a 4 year bachelor's of science in Software Development. During his last semester he showed me this "Really cool program" that used openGL to make random flashy colors appear in a boxed window. That was like 4 years ago.

I didn't really understand programing at the time so I figured  after 4 years of education if thats all they knew it must be an extremely difficult skill to master.

 

Two years later I left the states and lived in Honduras for a year. I only worked 4  hour days in a small pueblo two hours outside of Teguc. The tranquil (government free) environment was like an intellectual awakening for me. The lack of distraction that we have in the US really opened my mind to a whole new level of focus I never thought I had. In my spare time during the day I learned things I never had time to enjoy in the states, like reading 27 books during that same year. Even with all the book reading, beer drinking, afternoon jogging ect,  I still had spare time to do with as I please. As a result I taught myself a pretty descent level of C++ in a period of about 3 months. In those 3 months I created close to a dozen apps. I even built my own Multiplayer over LAN 3d Pong game. Each player getting his own prespective from his side of the pong table. I taught myself Ogre and used that coupled with my own customized winsock class. 

On top of that I created almost a dozen other small programs, including a LAN chat client and a chat server much like how jabber works. I did all of this in 3 months. My friend spent 4 years learning how to make colors flash on his screen. From that point on I really questioned heavily institutionalized education. 

Self education is indeed an amazing thing. It's amazing how much you can learn when someone isn't spoon feeding or force feeding  you a load of garbage in the class room.

Capital Pumper:

I've started to notice these points being used frequently by my opponents in discussions on proverbial schools.

Is this about state schools versus private schools or about home schooling against public schools?

Capital Pumper:

1. Schooling is required to develop academic skills; such as reading, writing, and arithmetic.

So how did people learn it without schools for millenia? Studying and instruction do enhance learning these skills. But who says one can only do that with a state-run public schools and that there are not better means of doing it?

Capital Pumper:

2. These institutions serve as a foundation for social interaction, and teach youth valuable cooperation skills needed in the real world.

For starters I doubt that public school class rooms are really the best place to learn these kind of "soft skills". Sitting behind a table with kids from the same year listening  (or not) to a college educated grown up that couldn't find the guts and intellect for a real vocation, isn't exactly what I would call preparation for the real world. Let's face it in the real world you have to do with people of different ages and relationships to them aren't that normed as they are at school.

Besides that social interaction and cooperation skills are learned outside school: In the family, in clubs, with friends at church etc.

Capital Pumper:

3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future.

And at school they never would come into touch with drugs and bad behaviour, right?

Capital Pumper:

4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences.

Schools need to teach the non (or less) ideological subjects so that they can monopolize on being a source of knowledge. Otherwise there would be other sources as well and they could compete with the school as institutionalized source of knowlege/ world views.

Anyway, you can embed ideology into science as well. There are more subtle ways to influence people. And doing that indirectly is even more efficient.

Capital Pumper:

5. Kid raising tool.

No, a state indoctrination tool. And if it isn't the state other interest groups may do as well.

Schools basically take kids away from parental authority. They actually do destroy that authority piece by piece. It's a shell game over responsibility and a blame game on who messed up the kids. Parents shift their responsibility to teach and groom to the school, while the school (teachers) blame the "parental home" for the misbehaviour of the kids. Ever thought their might be something wrong with the educational system and the predominant ideology in society that (amongst other things) tells us how to raise kids?

Capital Pumper:

What say you denizens of Mises forum?

What do you mean by denizens?

 

 

 

 

Capital Pumper:

1. Schooling is required to develop academic skills; such as reading, writing, and arithmetic.

Obviously people on this forum are giving many examples of how much they learned without the state.

Capital Pumper:

2. These institutions serve as a foundation for social interaction, and teach youth valuable cooperation skills needed in the real world.

It does not follow that only the state can do this, or that the state can do this best.

Capital Pumper:

4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences.

Actually most classes students take aren't science or math oriented. They are fuzzy like english history and government. In history and government classes, students are told outright lies like the civil war was over slavery or the great depression was caused by the free market.

Torsten:

Capital Pumper:

What say you denizens of Mises forum?

What do you mean by denizens?

I think he's saying that we're some kind of rodents...

 

Like Jews right, and Christians, and Muslims, and, Hindu's, and Commmunists, and anyone else who doesn't like cheesecake. 

Torsten:

Let's face it in the real world you have to do with people of different ages and relationships to them aren't that normed as they are at school.

 

I believe this to be one of the biggest misunderstandings related to mass public schooling. The "social skills" that kids supposedly learn by being around their peers are overrated. I personally learned more social skills in 1 week at my first job than in 12 years at school.

I also think its silly to group children together by age instead of aptitude, but thats a whole other rant...

Democracy for Breakfast:

 

College is very important, the diverse community and clubs broaden your horizons of the world.

Yeah right.  That sounds like an argument the NEA would make.  And sometimes biased?  Over half of my professors at college were open Marxists, and this was in the South!

I say avoid college if you can, learn a trade.  I didnt learn as much until after I got out of the education racket.

MatthewF:

I believe this to be one of the biggest misunderstandings related to mass public schooling. The "social skills" that kids supposedly learn by being around their peers are overrated. I personally learned more social skills in 1 week at my first job than in 12 years at school.

I can imagine that. The social skills learned at school are artificial. And let's face it, it's bootlicking with your teacher to gain some favor. Trying to become part of the in group. Teaming up for shit with other students and the like. The real social skills are learned outside school, be it with friends, at the sports club, church or even with the family and the holiday job. Yeah I even say during a shoping experience or at the restaurant people learn more. So school is the last thing to learn good social skills.

MatthewF:

I also think its silly to group children together by age instead of aptitude, but thats a whole other rant...

I think the age grading is due to promote egalitarianism and to uniform the kids so that they can be better controlled (externally) as grown ups.

In work life you'll have to work with a team of people of different rank and qualification. They WILL be of different age. And if you go for a barbecue during leasure time, be advice that this typically will be people ten years older or younger then you (and I even don't mention that they may bring the kids.)

I downloaded some of the books of John Gatto at gigapedia.com .

He may go a bit far with some points, but on a general note, what he says makes sense. School isn't about knowledge, but about control. And education is actually ex ducation (leading you somewhere else) - Away from your natural social group/community ?

Some of the issue here may link up with the ADHD debate as well.

 

 

 

 

MatthewF:

I also hated going to school at that age. Maybe for different reasons...

My little brother and I were reading fairly well and working on multiplication by the time I entered Kindergarten. I remember being very frustrated the first few years in school because I was forced to "learn" ABC's and basic addition & subtraction which I already knew how to do.

By late Elementary school and Jr. High I had given up on doing homework and would simply do the in class work and tests to keep my grades at average level. I didn't understand why I needed to do homework if I could learn the material by reading the textbook and practicing a few times in class.

I think at this point in my life I should have gotten a job. Maybe I would have learned the value of following rules and managing money. I think the independence and responsibility would have been a huge boost to my character.

By the time I was in High school I had completely checked out. I skipped classes, ignored homework, and rebelled against what I was being taught when I did attend; especially  in history, social studies, and economics classes.

My first job saved me and restored my confidence in my ability to learn and grow. Funny thing is the whole time I was "failing" or barely passing in school, I was reading about physics, politics, history, persuasion, economics, and a host of other things that most of my school aged friends never got a grasp on.

I bet this type of story is much more common than we would imagine. Government schools suck!

 

My main problem with School(College in particular) is that your forced to spend money and time on things that you could otherwise get on your own. I am at my first semester at a Community College, and the classes I am taking are all pointless. The only class I enjoy is Music History. I have to cut time I could be spending on Piano or reading about Economics for the 500 math problems I am forced to do. Most of the people in the Remedial Math class are idiots.

I'm really starting to question the point of investing my time in College, other then to get a degree so I can make a living. It isn't that I can't handle all the work, its that the massive workload is pointless information, very time consuming, and bores me to hell. I think I would have been better off having a Private Tutor for the Math, so that I'm not so infuriated with it right now.

Additionally, classes like Public Speaking are really annoying. I don't understand why you should have to take that class, everything they talk about in lecture is all common sense, and very dry. The books were also expensive for the class, and the book is bullshit, its all common knowledge. Its unbearable to read.

The English classes doesn't study any literature, which is very disappointing. We spent an entire class talking about the MLA format, and then we usually spend the rest of it doing word and crossword puzzles.

If this is how College is in the first year, then why the hell do we learn all the same shit in High School for four years? This really does show that Standardization in Public Schools is worthless. Since, even if you don't learn it in High School, they make sure you learn it in College. Its just a lot more irritating to have to spend money on going through the same material, and sometimes even more dumbed down.

sicsempertyrannis:

Democracy for Breakfast:

 

College is very important, the diverse community and clubs broaden your horizons of the world.

Yeah right.  That sounds like an argument the NEA would make.  And sometimes biased?  Over half of my professors at college were open Marxists, and this was in the South!

I say avoid college if you can, learn a trade.  I didnt learn as much until after I got out of the education racket.

 

You can't network with such a diverse group of people anywhere else. The workplace is mostly teenagers, dropouts, and low-income adults. Where College has people who have traveled, people from other countries, and a lot of unique characteristics. Everyone is so unique at College, where in High School a lot of people are the same.

Democracy for Breakfast:

You can't network with such a diverse group of people anywhere else.

You're networking right now with people on the Mises forums. This whole site is relatively an esoteric element in this world, which makes the internet a shining amenity of the diversity which you seek.

By the way, is crankery preached by the schisms of statism what you consider diversity? If so then you should reflect on what words to use for identification rather than connotation.

 

Democracy for Breakfast:

The workplace is mostly teenagers, dropouts, and low-income adults.

Subjective and stigmatizing people for flippant reasons.

In the workplace a person learns the relationship between work and reward, and enters in by his own voluntary choice. A person derives purpose within this setting, and has an incentive to cooperate with others to work toward a common ends; consequently offering something of value to other traders (suppose this is a private sector job ). Where as school is a euphemism for prison. You're dragooned into it and forced to vegetate in a confined space. Instead of prison gangs you have cliques; instead of a warden and guards you have a principle and teachers. However, the details are irrelevant. The two environments (prison and school) are relatively immature, unnerving, unproductive, and all at the expense of net tax producers.

 

Democracy for Breakfast:

Where College has people who have traveled, people from other countries, and a lot of unique characteristics. Everyone is so unique at College, where in High School a lot of people are the same.

This just sounds like a parody of the propaganda I focused this thread around.

Capital Pumper:

Democracy for Breakfast:

You can't network with such a diverse group of people anywhere else.

You're networking right now with people on the Mises forums. This whole site is relatively an esoteric element in this world, which makes the internet a shining amenity of the diversity which you seek.

By the way, is crankery preached by the schisms of statism what you consider diversity? If so then you should reflect on what words to use for identification rather than connotation.

 

Democracy for Breakfast:

The workplace is mostly teenagers, dropouts, and low-income adults.

Subjective and stigmatizing people for flippant reasons.

In the workplace a person learns the relationship between work and reward, and enters in by his own voluntary choice. A person derives purpose within this setting, and has an incentive to cooperate with others to work toward a common ends; consequently offering something of value to other traders (suppose this is a private sector job ). Where as school is a euphemism for prison. You're dragooned into it and forced to vegetate in a confined space. Instead of prison gangs you have cliques; instead of a warden and guards you have a principle and teachers. However, the details are irrelevant. The two environments (prison and school) are relatively immature, unnerving, unproductive, and all at the expense of net tax producers.

 

Democracy for Breakfast:

Where College has people who have traveled, people from other countries, and a lot of unique characteristics. Everyone is so unique at College, where in High School a lot of people are the same.

This just sounds like a parody of the propaganda I focused this thread around.

I don't care about what people they are on Mises. It doesn't matter if you can't meet people in person.

And do you even know what your saying? College IS voluntary, Public School is forced.

I HAVE had a blue-collar job before, it isn't hard to get one, and managers are lazy as hell.

 

This is often what discourages working for me, and I know other bright people who have had the same experiences. On the job, you always seem to find these spoiled teenagers who socialize most of the time instead of working, and then force you to get really uptight when they aren't doing a good job. In a lot of situations they argue back with you, because they rather just get paid and socialize, then think they don't they can get away with not working hard.

The thing I, and a lot of other people, can't stand about working is the other people you work with. I've had two jobs, and i've always had at least 2-3 people that were unkind, bitter, and impatient. They seem to think they are "cool" or that they don't have to be friendly or get to know someone who doesn't go to their teen parties, or isn't like them.

But it sure as hell makes it a lot more stressful, and a lot less worth the effort. I quit my job because the stress got to me, it wasn't worth it for Minimum Wage. I try to avoid needing a job as much as possible, and focus on being in College. If I ever needed to get a blue-collar job again, I would feel like my whole world is coming down.

Democracy for Breakfast:

And do you even know what your saying? College IS voluntary, Public School is forced.

Sort of. The gummint requrires degrees for lots of things. To be a teacher, engineer, whatever.

Did you talk to the manager or boss about these non-worker's he or she have on the payroll?

I'll give this a shot and try answering the questions directly from my opinion:

Capital Pumper:

I've started to notice these points being used frequently by my opponents in discussions on proverbial schools.

1. Schooling is required to develop academic skills; such as reading, writing, and arithmetic.

This would need to be elaborated.  Why is public schooling required for this option?  What if an individual chooses not to send his son off to learn basic arithmetic, and/or he son doesn't choose to do so?  Should the family/individual be coerced at gunpoint to learn it?

2. These institutions serve as a foundation for social interaction, and teach youth valuable cooperation skills needed in the real world.

Kind of like how you learn valuable social interactions skills and create valuable networks in prison?

3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future.

This is why it's the parent's discretion.

4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences.

This one has left me speechless.

Really?

5. Kid raising tool.

Please care about your children more.