I've started to notice these points being used frequently by my opponents in discussions on proverbial schools.
1. Schooling is required to develop academic skills; such as reading, writing, and arithmetic.
2. These institutions serve as a foundation for social interaction, and teach youth valuable cooperation skills needed in the real world.
3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future.
4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences.
5. Kid raising tool.
What say you denizens of Mises forum?
What are they going to do about it when we stop paying taxes and there is no government? I know this is not a convincing argument, but really, anyone that would believe those cliches probably cannot be convinced.
But here is a more thorough critique:
1. It is baseless and fearmongoring. Government schools did not always exist and people could do reading, writing, and arithmetic before then. Not only that, but people who are home-schooled can read, write, and do arithmetic.
2. a. People in private schools and private classes get social interaction. b. Baseless assertion that children need it to learn how to cooperate. Make them prove it.
3. It is up to the parents and children to decide.
4. No, not all of it is indoctrination. So?
5. Yes, I would agree it is mostly baby-sitting.
At most, 5% of the population would need to stop complying to bring down the government.
Do some research into Gatto
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=25171
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKci3_cmlqI (Part 1 of 5)
Gatto on Infowars (Part 1 of 5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jzc7Js4wqQ
I moved around a lot, and changed schools 8 times from Montessori to University (dropped out). School is almost completely indoctrination. I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
God, don't get me started. I would never place a child into the brutal and animalistic environment that is a public school.
DarkCatalyst: God, don't get me started. I would never place a child into the brutal and animalistic environment that is a public school.
Do elaborate please. I would love to hear the meticulous perspectives of people here on this subject.
Capital Pumper:Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future.
OMG, how did anyone raise children without governments pointing guns at their heads?
What parent do you know gives their kid the choice? Or are parents assumed to be as dumb as their kids? I guess we'll need a public program we all pay into to feed them, bathe them, and wipe their asses, because it's possible some lazy parents might not without the threat of violence.
Capital Pumper:4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math.
How much math and hard science did you learn in K-12, and how much was history, civics, gym, etc?
liberty student: Do some research into Gatto http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=25171 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKci3_cmlqI (Part 1 of 5) Gatto on Infowars (Part 1 of 5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jzc7Js4wqQ I moved around a lot, and changed schools 8 times from Montessori to University (dropped out). School is almost completely indoctrination. I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed.
OMG LS. This post made my day. I plan on writing an essay about education and mental born illnesses sometime next year. Thanks soo much for this. Somehow I didn't even know about Gatto. I've been spending all my time reading obscured and inconclusive studies which somehow changes patterns of natural behavior into mental retardations, like ADD and ADHD =p. I shall plan on reading some of Gatto's stuff before I write my thesis. Thanks again buddy.
Statism is a religion.
filc:Thanks again buddy.
No worries. I think his book is available online for free. He covers the history of public education, and its roots in the militaristic Prussian system,etc.
I am looking for his first Infowars interview, because it was much better than the 2nd one (which I posted). If I find it, I will send it to you.
DUH, it was on Nielsio's channel!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1kgSlLawyQ
That is one of the best channels on YouTube IMO.
Thanks again!
Capital Pumper: I've started to notice these points being used frequently by my opponents in discussions on proverbial schools. 1. Schooling is required to develop academic skills; such as reading, writing, and arithmetic. 2. These institutions serve as a foundation for social interaction, and teach youth valuable cooperation skills needed in the real world. 3. Children should not have a choice in the matter, since they are at a age where they don't know what's best for them. If it weren't for their parent's use of coercion, the children would play video games all day; subsequently ruining their own future. 4. To say that school is a government indoctrination center is a generalization. Most of the classes are purely objective, such as science and math. Government indoctrination in U.S.S.R schools was minimal, since most of what they taught (far more proficiently than any North American or European school today) were the sciences. 5. Kid raising tool. What say you denizens of Mises forum?
Now are we talking about public schools? or the abolishment of schooling altogather? because I think thats just darn crazy.
I'm in favor of student vouchers provided by the Government, while the abolishment of NCLB, Dept of Education school districts, and Teacher's Unions.
I agree with most of the people in this topic, I would never send my child to a public school, I plan on sending mine to a private institution or montessori. They are very expensive schools though, and because of the establishment of education.
Here, this is a good video. Everyone check this out.
Watch this whole thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx4pN-aiofw
In parts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UawUHbKCzws&feature=PlayList&p=F12FA7D6E2EBB7BE&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=16
Democracy for Breakfast: Now are we talking about public schools? or the abolishment of schooling altogather? because I think thats just darn crazy.
It depends on the subjects. Anything that has the slightest political impact has to be abolished, which would simply happen in a free school system. Competitive firms have strict apolitical policy.
liberty student: No worries. I think his book is available online for free. He covers the history of public education, and its roots in the militaristic Prussian system,etc.
The Underground History of American Education: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/
It's a very good book. It was pretty much the first thing I ever read that suggested removing an institution and liberalizing it.
The appeal to "charity" is a truly ironic one. First, it is hardly "charity" to take wealth by force and hand it over to someone else. -Rothbard
Capital Pumper: Do elaborate please. I would love to hear the meticulous perspectives of people here on this subject.
I will when I get a good block of time. I'll tell you about the time I was railroaded into a two week suspension during my Catholic high school years. Anyway, I should have been clearer earlier. I oppose any sort of mass schooling, be it public or private.
Read Rand's "The Comprachicos" if you haven't already. She exaggerates some things but does make several good points.
liberty student:I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed.
I second that. Self direction is the key. Institutions are a waste of money and time. Well I would pay for an engineering degree. I think it's worth about 15k. Since I can't get one for that price. I pay $30 a month for the internet. Learn all the same stuff, and have access to more professionals.
"...The post-totalitarian system contrives to force life into its most probable states...This system serves people only to the extent necessary to ensure that people will serve it
Vaclav Havel
The Mises institute is of course the exception. It's free. MIT now too.
Saan: liberty student:I have made the most progress in my life, when my education was self-directed. I second that. Self direction is the key. Institutions are a waste of money and time. Well I would pay for an engineering degree. I think it's worth about 15k. Since I can't get one for that price. I pay $30 a month for the internet. Learn all the same stuff, and have access to more professionals.
Well thats nice and all, but how many people would have the motivation to do that? Also, employers won't look at you if you tell them your education is from the internet. I very well could learn the things I'm going to college for, but there's things a Masters of Liberal Arts can't obtain through the internet. While some courses are boring, especially my remedial math course, its called an "opportunity" and if you want to gain entry into higher education you have to take, it doesn't matter weather your a libertarian or not.
College is very important, the diverse community and clubs broaden your horizons of the world. Professors are sometimes biased, but a lot of the time they are interested to hear about a theory they don't have a lot of students talk to them about. My Poli Sci teacher took a specific interest in me last year, because of my libertarianism, while he never agreed, he never had another student with the same philosophies.
Being a member of Mises doesn't mean you get to feel like an elitist and that you are above schooling just because you may have way different beliefs then other people do.
While you are correct that self direction is a key, your argument about institutions being a waste of time doesn't work. You can't learn a language as well as you could from a paid institution, and I think learning a language is highly important to enhancing your awareness of other cultures.
Saan:I second that. Self direction is the key. Institutions are a waste of money and time.
Particularly in doing anything in IT, by the time you reach the 3rd year of your degree, a good portion of the course load may be outdated.
I work online, and probably spend 15 hours a week keeping up with industry developments. I'm pretty sure this will be the model going forward. People having to upgrade as they work, or risk their productive advantage wiped out through obselence.
Its actually kind of disappointing to see some people here seem to think that being libertarian means they are above college because they hold different views. While indocterination is evident in some cases, its up to you.
In High School teachers held your hand through what you should learn and consider, but in College your all on your own and its up to you to make the best and most productive of your education.
Democracy for Breakfast:College is very important, the diverse community and clubs broaden your horizons of the world. Professors are sometimes biased, but a lot of the time they are interested to hear about a theory they don't have a lot of students talk to them about. My Poli Sci teacher took a specific interest in me last year, because of my libertarianism, while he never agreed, he never had another student with the same philosophies.
Not necessarily.
A person leaving highschool who wants to work in IT has two paths. Immediately start his career by seeking work and working his way up through employers or by getting a degree. The individual who has 4 years of experience will have far more career opportunity's over the individual who has a 4 year bachelors of science. In IT experience holds far more weight, this is true for most engineering disciplines.
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