Political Theory

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

cryptocode — Wed, 06 May 2009 18:13:44 GMT

Oh, "Lord love a duck!"

I have now spent a good part of 3 days reading and considering this thread and I will here give you some of my thoughts on it. First, I note that pages 1-7 have a set of authors different from pages 8 and 9.

The first set of authors are, I believe, completely unrealistic and idealistic. This is common to the young and to the academic. They seem to be excited by the ideas but ignorant and uninterested in the practice (of the ideas). The second set are much more realistic but the first set did not respond to them, which says even more about the first set. As a teenager some of my favorite authors were Clark, Heinlein, and Asimov. And the island idea might make a good sci-fi.

Today an island without population would exist only because of no potable water or unbearable climate. To get potable water would require a de-salinization plant. To run the plant would require a nuclear generator. To use both would need a distribution system, whose support would require roads (if only graded and compacted). At this point no one lives there and billions (if not trillions) have been spent. I am an active investor and have occasionally taken some big risks, but this project would not get 1 penny from me. So suppose these improvements were all inplace and the first set moved there and homesteaded. As academics they have no skills and must be completely supported by a working population that must be paid and who will outnumber them. As NAPs they must also hire security including, probably, individual bodyguards, although not until they begin earning a sufficient income. There is no culture whatever to hold or guide them on one path. And finally, note that we currently have a government directed and primarily run by academics.

My thoughts here may be unjustly negative, but may spur some response, if only in anger. But I do challenge these first set of authors to take at least 1 class, during their schooling, in a trade. Try welding, woodworking, cooking, cleaning, gardening, shoemaking, gunsmithing, anything. A skilled welder taday earns $USD 200,000 - 250,000 in the Canadian oil sands, non-union. Also I strongly recommend that each of the first set of authors take a gun safety class. These typically last 1 day and don't cost too much, everything needed is provided, and there is a choice of pistol, rifle, or shotgun safety. See the NRA site for schedules.

I think the second set of authors is not only more realistic but can acturally be accomplished today. But is the commitment really there or is it all talk.

My idea is to do it by means of the currency. Gold coins are not taxed. Did you know that! So if you could create a sub-economy that dealt in gold there would be no taxes, legally. In order to consume the maximum possible of your desired consumption as economically as possible this sub-economy would have to be a physically geographic community - a small town or village. Each Libertarian would purchase a home and live there, hopefully resulting in all contiguous land being so owned. The village would, desirably, be as self-supporting as possible. Realistically most would have jobs outsice the village which earned income on which all taxes must be paid. All remaining income would then be converted to gold. In time the village would grow to be self-supporting. In this way legal secession could be postponed until the village had grown to be large enough and rich enough and therefore powerfull enough to defend itself, and would have other villages started on the same path.

The free-state project of the Libertarian Party has, by vote, selected New Hampshire and when 20,000 members commit to move there, it will be able to vote in the State Legislature, they propose.

I think that Montana is a better choice, for many reasons. The population is 1/2, and the current laws and population are much more supportive today.

I hope you will reply, both sets, please.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

Spideynw — Mon, 04 May 2009 16:27:19 GMT

onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:

Stranger:

onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:
Hoppe is wrong. The only revolution required is a personal one. No one else has to agree or support you, you do not have to form any group of like-minded individuals, and you do not need a "microstate" however defined. Personal secession on your terms [not Hoppe's or anyone elses] is all that is required.

How will you protect yourself?

From ?

Those that want to throw you in jail or kill you for not obeying their laws? You know, shut your business down for not getting a license. Or throw you in jail for smoking a joint. Etc., etc.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom — Mon, 04 May 2009 15:59:57 GMT

Stranger:

onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:
Hoppe is wrong. The only revolution required is a personal one. No one else has to agree or support you, you do not have to form any group of like-minded individuals, and you do not need a "microstate" however defined. Personal secession on your terms [not Hoppe's or anyone elses] is all that is required.

How will you protect yourself?

From ?

********************************************************************************************
Hello From a "Post- Austrian",Anarcho-Capitalist ,Taoist, 911 "No- Planer":

Financial safety blog:

Personal freedom blog :
*******************************************************************************************

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

Stranger — Mon, 04 May 2009 15:19:22 GMT

onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom:
Hoppe is wrong. The only revolution required is a personal one. No one else has to agree or support you, you do not have to form any group of like-minded individuals, and you do not need a "microstate" however defined. Personal secession on your terms [not Hoppe's or anyone elses] is all that is required.

How will you protect yourself?

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

onebornfreedotblogspotdotcom — Mon, 04 May 2009 14:10:55 GMT

Hoppe is wrong. The only revolution required is a personal one. No one else has to agree or support you, you do not have to form any group of like-minded individuals, and you do not need a "microstate" however defined. Personal secession on your terms [not Hoppe's or anyone elses] is all that is required.

******************************************************************************************************************

Hello From a "Post- Austrian",Anarcho-Capitalist ,Taoist, 911 "No- Planer": http://mises.org/Community/forums/t/6714.aspx

Financial safety blog: http://www.onebornfreesfinancialsafetyreports.blogspot.com/

Personal freedom blog : http://www.onebornfree.blogspot.com/

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

Brandy-Hans — Sun, 03 May 2009 16:48:10 GMT

As you will find on the here mentionned links, the Hanseatic League's spirit has already been re-started in the city of Zwolle in the Netherlands, in 1980. You will find it at www.hanse.org The actual president is the Mayor of the city of Luebeck in Germany. Since 1980, you have in summer, Hanseatic Days, each year in another hanseatic city.

As Flemish-belgian, I also feel involved in this revival. Brugge, in Flanders, Bryggen/Norway and Veliky Novgorod/Russia were the 3 Main-Offices (Kontor) of the continent. This year the "Hanseatic Days' are held in Novgorod Russia.

In my eyes, an historical revival of an area must also have an historial social and economical vision in sight and this is what I developped on my website : www.HansaMarine.org that you are welcome to visit.

Best Regards from Antwerp^in Flanders.

Brandy.Hans@skynet.be

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

liberty student — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:16:52 GMT

smelton:
if a state were to secede, like Texas, how would it defend itself against an invasion from another power, like Mexico?

How does Switzerland defend itself against invasion by France, Italy or Germany?

smelton:
Also, how will Texas fight a war against the U.S.

Why would Texas fight a war?

smelton:
And what about nukes. Would a state like Texas be able to take over any nuclear weapons within its borders fairly easily, or could they be used by the U.S. against Texas?

I don't understand this. How could anyone possibly claim to know an answer to this?

smelton:
My last question is this: is Ahlgren associated with the Mises Institute

I've never heard of him. Mises.org does not promote violence or violent solutions.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

smelton — Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:12:03 GMT

I'm new here, but I came expressly because I was told that mises.org is a great resource for learning about the viability of secession.

A year ago, I read 'Discipline' by Paco Ahlgren, which I'm sure most or all of you have read, since he in an Austrian (which is the reason I found this site), and I dismissed his prediction that the dollar would fail, to be replaced by a private currency, and that Texas would secede. The book is fiction so it seemed pretty ridiculous to me. He even has a scene where the Texas governor gives a speech about secession.

Obviously, lately I've taken his predictions much more seriously, and in doing more research I found out he wrote the book years ago. So I know there are a lot of people who have loosely predicted all this, but he actually wrote the story before it happened, which scares me even more, because there's a lot of other stuff in the book that hasn't happened yet. For those of you who haven't seen it, you can read an article he wrote recently at Seeking Alpha, where he ties secession to the dollar's failure. http://seekingalpha.com/article/117801-the-end-of-the-u-s-as-we-know-it-tracking-the-dollar-downward

I have a lot of questions, and I guess this is as good a place as any to ask them. I'll start here -- if a state were to secede, like Texas, how would it defend itself against an invasion from another power, like Mexico? Also, how will Texas fight a war against the U.S. One of Ahlgren's arguements is that the U.S. is stretched to thin to fight a long civil war that would be unpopular anyway. And what about nukes. Would a state like Texas be able to take over any nuclear weapons within its borders fairly easily, or could they be used by the U.S. against Texas?

My last question is this: is Ahlgren associated with the Mises Institute, and does he speak publicly that you know of -- if you know at all? I know he's speaking next month at an event in Las Vegas, but I can't make it, so I was hoping someone here could help me out with any other appearances. I wrote to him directly about all of this, but I haven't heard back.

Thank you in advance.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

Charlie G — Wed, 18 Feb 2009 22:03:10 GMT

The Free State Project has evolved into a networking tool to organize relocation of "liberty-minded" people into New Hampshire. Beyond that, the movers do what they chose to do. You are quite welcome to come here and find a way to put your idea into practice. The more activism in a concentrated location, the better the chances of successes.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

freedom_seek — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 20:32:11 GMT

Charlie G:
From my own experience living in New Hampshire, there is a fantastic and blossoming activist community of agorists and anarchists living in the town of Keene, New Hampshire and surrounding towns. In a sentence, it's the place to be if you care about the future of liberty.

The Free State Project is a good thing. What is happening in New Hampshire bodes well for liberty. The point, however, is that the Free State Project needs to be like McDonalds or Starbucks. The objective is to drive down the street and pass five Free Subdivisions on your way to work.

Why not develop a system that can replicate itself and spread freedom around the world? Why should one country, one city, or one state be the ultimate goal.? Acheiving the ultimate goal of course involves convincing one individual and one home at a time.

The challenge appears to be getting paid to increase the amount of freedom in the world.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

Charlie G — Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:01:26 GMT

geniusiknowit:

The Free State Project is too grand in scope.

Start with a Free Village Project.

From my own experience living in New Hampshire, there is a fantastic and blossoming activist community of agorists and anarchists living in the town of Keene, New Hampshire and surrounding towns. In a sentence, it's the place to be if you care about the future of liberty.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

freedom_seek — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 14:01:47 GMT

geniusiknowit:

The Free State Project is too grand in scope.

Start with a Free Village Project.

What is stopping you from going even smaller? The Free Home Project or the Free Person Project seems more accessible to the average individual. The biggest concern I have is that many of these activities like Seasteading, Island Settling, and Freeing a state come with a high switching cost. Lots of people have to be organized. Efforts need to be coordinated. Profit, self-defense, marketing, and basic infrastructure need to be sorted out. Creating a free village seems more achievable, but some of the same issues need to be sorted out (just on a smaller scale). If the scale is shrunk to the smallest scale of a single home the issues become more manageable and actionable. The movement is also difficult to crush since anybody anywhere can do it. Governments would need to go house to house everyday to truly eradicate freedom.

Settling an island will take years maybe decades to pull off. Partially seceding your home from the state is a much easier proposition. Just start making a list of what the state provides, and begin to develop or use currently existing alternatives. Services like water, sewer, electric power, security, and mail delivery already have solutions that permit independence. The point is to convert your home into a bastion of freedom. It seems like businesses can grow up around this concept. Personal and home security are the most important. Your home needs to protect you from a state invasion. In some cases this means steel reinforced concrete, electric fences, vaults, dogs, secret rooms, or outbuilding. This can all be done discretely.

The reason that an individual accepts government in the first place is that they cannot defend themselves. All public government / mafia systems are predicated on the existence of irresponsible individuals. An individual that takes responsibility for his own self-defense finds himself asking why he needs to pay for public security services. The same is true of an individual that takes responsibility for his finances. No need to seek out a loan shark named Vinny, or a welfare check from your government.

The true litmus test of any strategy is whether it can be applied at any scale. If the strategy is scale independent, then you do not need to flee your current location. Instead, begin right now to wean yourself off of the state. This doesn't mean that you stop paying all taxes immediately after adding an extra deadbolt to your door. Crawl before you walk.

Take responsibility for yourself first (put your own oxygen mask on before helping others)
Educate others (form a security business or a financial planning business or create an instructional website)
Franchise liberty (form a construction company that specializes in secure housing communities)

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

MacFall — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 05:20:16 GMT

liberty student:

Ah.... I love the smell of market uncertainty in the morning!

That smell, you know... that chaotic smell. Smells like... economic profit.

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

liberty student — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 04:45:01 GMT

krazy kaju:
Seems like a good idea, but wouldn't you be worried about a hyperinterventionist state... well... intervening?

Sure, as long as we are all stuck on this dirtball, we're out of space for all intents and purposes, and states have laid claim individually or collectively (UN) over all of it.

Yeah, so intervention by a state is an issue. So what do we do? Operate out of multiple states? Operate out of minarchist states? Do we start servicing only the highest end clientele that can afford our services, those with the cachet to avoid intereference from states?

I don't know the exact answer. That would take research, risk, experimentation. Ah.... I love the smell of market uncertainty in the morning!

Re: Microsecession as a strategy and the prospects for a new Hanseatic League

krazy kaju — Mon, 09 Feb 2009 02:20:10 GMT

liberty student:
When Nitro and I visited P3X4W on our last mission through the Stargate, we observed the indigenous people using a naquadah generator to create a shield over their city.

oic. Was the generator resistant to phase cannons?

Rather than moving to an island FIRST, shouldn't we be establishing our services and firms closer to our suppliers of energy and internet? The entreprenuer in me says start small, prove the concept (profit, demand) before investing everything in an all or nothing ideological mission that could turn out like an episode of LOST.

We could establish panarchistic communities right now. We can do data security, right now. We could provide documentation and shadow citizenship now.

Seems like a good idea, but wouldn't you be worried about a hyperinterventionist state... well... intervening?