Political Theory

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Brainpolice — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:25:59 GMT

krazy kaju:

Wren:
Both more or less. I'm not trying to be specific, but I'm thinking of the american version of libertarianism vs. the old european or communistic version of libertarianism etc.. So don't sweat it. Now, moving on...

Ugh... I guess I'm not the only one who has argued against leftists wanting to claim the title of "libertarian."

Neither "leftists" OR "rightists", in the political senses of those terms, can claim the title of libertarian.

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

ricarpe — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:43:34 GMT

I wonder if the guy in Part 1 wearing the pink pants did that spontaneously...

On a serious note, that was awesome. I'm going to pass on the link to some friends at work who share some similar views politically and economically. I just have to do so carefully, the sheep are easily disturbed and will bite anyone who bothers their rosy view of the world.

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

krazy kaju — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:18:02 GMT

Stranger:
The word libertarian is legitimately an invention of French anarchist communists after being an anarchist was outlawed.

I know. The problem is that their petit bougeoisie allies stole the title of "liberal" away from us.

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Juan — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:18:53 GMT

libertarian : (dictionary.com)

1. a person who advocates liberty, esp. with regard to thought or conduct.
2. a person who maintains the doctrine of free will (distinguished from necessitarian).
–adjective
3. advocating liberty or conforming to principles of liberty.
4. maintaining the doctrine of free will.
[Origin: 1780–90; libert(y) + -arian]

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Stranger — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:09:32 GMT

krazy kaju:

Wren:
Both more or less. I'm not trying to be specific, but I'm thinking of the american version of libertarianism vs. the old european or communistic version of libertarianism etc.. So don't sweat it. Now, moving on...

Ugh... I guess I'm not the only one who has argued against leftists wanting to claim the title of "libertarian."

The word libertarian is legitimately an invention of French anarchist communists after being an anarchist was outlawed.

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

krazy kaju — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:06:15 GMT

Wren:
Both more or less. I'm not trying to be specific, but I'm thinking of the american version of libertarianism vs. the old european or communistic version of libertarianism etc.. So don't sweat it. Now, moving on...

Ugh... I guess I'm not the only one who has argued against leftists wanting to claim the title of "libertarian."

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Magnus — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 12:17:49 GMT

Thx for the link, I just finished watching it!

Brad Pitt 1, Government 0

lol

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Wren — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 06:31:35 GMT

Angurse:

Wren:
It means libertarian as commonly known and used today. For personal reasons I try to differentiate among the types.

Like a belt-way libertarian, or did you just mean the pro-private property libertarian?

Both more or less. I'm not trying to be specific, but I'm thinking of the american version of libertarianism vs. the old european or communistic version of libertarianism etc.. So don't sweat it. Now, moving on...

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Angurse — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 04:08:00 GMT

Wren:
It means libertarian as commonly known and used today. For personal reasons I try to differentiate among the types.

Like a belt-way libertarian, or did you just mean the pro-private property libertarian?

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Wren — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 02:51:02 GMT

Angurse:

What does "American-libertarian" mean? (From a Canadian)

It means libertarian as commonly known and used today. For personal reasons I try to differentiate among the types.

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

fezwhatley — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 01:58:18 GMT

You can't replace "invisible hand" with "spontaneous order". The invisible hand describes a force of human nature, that benefits society. Spontaneous order is a phenomenon of the sum total of actions by individuals. You cannot combine apples and oranges

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Angurse — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 01:16:25 GMT

Wren:
I thought the special was OK. Some parts were good but other parts were kind of lame. I also thought this was too American-libertarian for most of the viewing public.

What does "American-libertarian" mean? (From a Canadian)

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Wren — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:35:36 GMT

I also don't like the use of the phrase 'invisible hand' because it still gives the impression of something external that is controlling or directing it all, and this meme, I guess if you can call it, gives rise to crackpot theories like Intelligent Design (sorry to all the IDers here )

I thought the special was OK. Some parts were good but other parts were kind of lame. I also thought this was too American-libertarian for most of the viewing public.

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Stranger — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 00:03:29 GMT

The "invisible hand" is just a primitive discovery of the now widely-recognized phenomenon of emergence, which involves astronomical numbers of individual actors cooperating by following a simple set of rules to create large organization.

Examples of emergence, outside of economics, are cellular automatons, multicellular DNA-based organisms, bird flocking and insect colonies, etc.

Re: John Stossel's Politically Incorrect Guide to Politics

Nitroadict — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 23:54:38 GMT

Solid_Choke:

This is the first time I've heard the term "spontaneous order" on a mainstream news channel.

Same.

I also think that the phrase "invisible hand" should be replaced with "spontaneous order", as the later describes the free-market's ability to correct itself much better, as well as putting the individual human, & the groups of individuals, as the ones who create spontaneous order, ahead of some abstract concept of an invisible hand, which the Statist can easily discredit by (ironically) claiming it to be mystical & non-practical.

I think if I had seen this special when I was Leftist, I would've been stunned, more or less, & maybe I would've arrived here earlier

If I could see the ratings for this (I'll try digging it up on Google in a few mins...), I probably would see decent to excellent ratings.

Regardless, this special further confirms the problem of marketing libertarianism seems to always have had (regardless of the obvious advantages Statism gains from discrediting libertarianism or anything remotely anti-statist), & I'm sure not actually mentioning the actual term "libertarianism" in the special helped as well.

Perhaps the use of the label & term inspires feelings of (perceived) elitism in those who either do not know what is, or who do not know what it really is, & the absence of such allows for a better bridge of communication.

Hmm...