Political Theory

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Knight_of_BAAWA — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:02:53 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
And yet you have. Why are you lying?

CurtHowland:
And no, I have not had any demonstration that statists "must" do anything.

Yes, you have. Why are you lying?

Knight of BAAWA:
That's not fulfilling the burden of proof at all. In fact: that's the same strawman garbage I've stated won't fly.

CurtHowland:
It's not a straw-man.

It is. Fact is: such pointing as "proving" the case strawmans the actual argument, i.e. that the statist has to show that only a government can provide the aforementioned services. What "most people" think is completely irrelevant, as it is argumentum ad populum.

Knight of BAAWA:
Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated. Why did you decide to create a strawman? Did you just not read?

CurtHowland:
Yes, I know that's what you've stated.

And shown.

Now then: did you have anything of merit to add here? No? Then I'll just ignore your rantings.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

CurtHowland — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:58:20 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:

And yet you have. Why are you lying?

Did you stop beating your wife?

And no, I have not had any demonstration that statists "must" do anything.

That's not fulfilling the burden of proof at all. In fact: that's the same strawman garbage I've stated won't fly.

It's not a straw-man. A straw-man would be if I said that the statists would simply point at the fact that there is, and always has been, a state, and then tried to prove that they wouldn't do said pointing.

Fact is, such pointing is all the statist has to do to "prove" the reality of the state to the vast majority of people.

Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated. Why did you decide to create a strawman? Did you just not read?

Yes, I know that's what you've stated. And you can go on and on about how someone else "has" to do something to your satisfaction, and you will be ignored.

You. Will. Be. Ignored.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

R.J. Moore II — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:44:12 GMT

I am saying that the burden of proof is on both sides of the argument.

It seems that the argument that the market can and will provide better services is a natural conclusion of economic logic. One need not provide empirical evidence for the law of marginal utility, only argumentation.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Knight_of_BAAWA — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:40:01 GMT

JCFolsom:
Whether they want to let us or not, doesn't change the essential question on whether the anarchist needs to provide supports for his own position.

And given that the anarchist doesn't....

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

JCFolsom — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:33:20 GMT

Whether they want to let us or not, doesn't change the essential question on whether the anarchist needs to provide supports for his own position. I am not saying no efforts have been made in this direction; they certainly have. Most people won't listen, and as you say, it's not exactly a position that people in power are really happy to help you share. Since government propoganda ministries are what has become of the Fourth Estate, these days, it really is difficult. I am not saying, either, that statists do not have to provide evidence for their own positions, or that any particular action of the state is actually beneficial. I am saying that the burden of proof is on both sides of the argument. If neither of you are willing to argue for your positions, it winds up being the status quo we go with, because there is no way to decide that things should change.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Geoffrey Allan Plauche — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:15:38 GMT

JCFolsom:

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated. Why did you decide to create a strawman? Did you just not read?

NO THEY DON'T. They have shown that theirs can provide the services. If you want to say that other ways to provide the services, it's on you to show it.

The problem with your positoin, JC, is that they don't want to let us. The state is an organization that claims a territorial monopoly on the legal use of force and ultimate decision-making. Statists don't just hold that the state can provide certain goods and services, they hold that only it can and should. Since they hold this stronger claim, it is their burden to prove said stronger claim.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Knight_of_BAAWA — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:14:18 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated. Why did you decide to create a strawman? Did you just not read?

JCFolsom:
NO THEY DON'T.

Yes, they do. They say that these things are so important that not only can we not trust the market to provide a solution, but the market can't provide one anyway.

Keep up your butthurt, though; it makes me laugh to watch you complain just because you hate atheists.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Knight_of_BAAWA — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 23:12:48 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated.

Geoffrey Allan Plauche:
Because if they don't believe that is the only organization that can, why then insist on a territorial monopoly?

Right. Why refuse to admit that market-based solutions could exist.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

JCFolsom — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:56:14 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated. Why did you decide to create a strawman? Did you just not read?

NO THEY DON'T. They have shown that theirs can provide the services. If you want to say that other ways to provide the services, it's on you to show it. Talking to you is like talking to a wall, a loudmouthed, pestilent, ridiculous Knight of BOOLSHITE wall, so this is the last time.

Please keep up your lovely attitude though. It's wonderful when loumouthed jackasses who refuse to argue their cases beyond arguing that they shouldn't have to argue their cases help turn people off to the cause.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Geoffrey Allan Plauche — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:52:18 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated.

Because if they don't believe that is the only organization that can, why then insist on a territorial monopoly?

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Knight_of_BAAWA — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:46:35 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
The statists have the sole burden of proof. I don't know why you don't understand that.

CurtHowland:
Over and over I see this same assertion, yet without any reality to back it up.

And yet you have. Why are you lying?

CurtHowland:
"Statists" point to the fact that there is a state, and it functions.

That's not fulfilling the burden of proof at all. In fact: that's the same strawman garbage I've stated won't fly.

Why not try reading; it helps.

Statists have to show that ONLY THE STATE CAN PROVIDE SERVICES LIKE POLICE, COURTS, MILITARY/DEFENSE, ETC. THAT is what I and others have stated. Why did you decide to create a strawman? Did you just not read?

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

Torsten — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:22:00 GMT

macsnafu:
Of course not. Infants have nothing to say about the subject because they don't know the first thing about it. You don't see that as atheistic? They're not saying "I don't believe", but they sure aren't saying "I believe" or "I'm not sure if I believe or not".

No, to me that would be agnostic. Personally I can't recall that I ever didn't believe in a supreme being. So basically one can assume that I'm born a theist.

But of course I can not speak for other people here.

The church used to be a very powerful/influential institution in South Africa. It became however more politicised over the year. So it also lost credibility, because people started looking through the fact that religion was instrumentalized for certain political goals. This also led to the fact that many people did turn their backs on the church right now. But that the institution went wrong doesn't say anything about the validity of christianity or the existence of a God.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

macsnafu — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:33:43 GMT

JCFolsom:
Funny, I don't see infants going around and turning up their nose at "those foolish superstitious primitive believers", than back down the minute they're confronted on it and say, "I don't disbelieve, I just don't believe.

Of course not. Infants have nothing to say about the subject because they don't know the first thing about it. You don't see that as atheistic? They're not saying "I don't believe", but they sure aren't saying "I believe" or "I'm not sure if I believe or not".

JCFolsom:
If you don't have an opinion one way or another, why aren't you just as distainful of "strong atheists"? I don't see people making analogies to how believing in the nonexistence of God is like believing in the tooth fairy.

wtf??

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

CurtHowland — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:08:51 GMT

Knight_of_BAAWA:
The statists have the sole burden of proof. I don't know why you don't understand that.

Over and over I see this same assertion, yet without any reality to back it up.

"Statists" point to the fact that there is a state, and it functions. That's it. Their "burden of proof" is fulfilled.

So, show me a working anarchy. Show me one square inch of this planet that is not ruled by a state. There isn't one.

You can proclaim how the "statists have the sole burden of proof" all day long, they will ignore you and you will get arrested when you try to use their silence as a reason for not paying taxes.

Statists don't have to play logic games. They have guns, and prisons, and the IRS.

Re: Anarcho-Capitalism: Possibilities and Limitations

CurtHowland — Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:00:42 GMT

Niccolò:
"LALALALALALA

This is how you treat people who disagree with you?