History

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Simon Lote — Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:48:07 GMT

With regards to the East India Company, the early East India company was a genuine trading corporation that did not initially aspire to rule the subcontinent but comprised a few dozen trading posts scattered along the Indian coast where it traded for opium, tea and Indian textiles to be sent back to Europe. These trading posts had to make their own private arrangements for protecting themselves against local bandits and warlords and so paid for their security from local mercenaries out of their own pockets.

Of course as it grew in size and power it became a de facto state, levying taxes and establishing a monopoly on Opium, but we shouldn't forget its anarchic origins.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

ama gi — Fri, 05 Sep 2008 06:04:46 GMT

xSFx:

To me it seems like the Anarcho-Capitalist states would get heavily beaten in each case, as it's far easier to send countless soldiers to die (or face execution) than to convince individuals that fighting against the odds is a better option than to surrender/run away.

If it were true that free people will not voluntarily risk their lives to defend their freedoms, then we would not have won the American Revolution or the War of 1812.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

krazy kaju — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:15:08 GMT

I don't get it, xSFx. You think that a small, weak national army is more powerful than an entire population that is armed?

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

nhaag — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:47:07 GMT

Has it ever occured to you that all private armies where always employed to attack rather than to defend? I am not aware about a single event, where a considerable force was hired to defend rather than to attack. Even the famous Swiss forces where hired for this use. They for sure defended their territories without payments.

Now, what reason might a free society have to attack, that is plan a war rather than plan a defense? Civil disobedience is a great, maybe the most effective way, to fight against an enemy, see Ghandi for that matter - not what happend later though-. And for a immediate attack on a free society a militia is also worth considering. I know there is no way to fight against nuclear weapons or to win a fight against a modern army anyway, unless you employ the way people do in Afganistan for example (This does not mean they do it for moral reasons). If anyone is a fighter ready to attack any foreigen attacker than any aggressing force has a hard time to get control over any territory, not to speak over the people - Have a look at Iraq-. If a "green zone" is all the biggest military machine on earth is able to achieve after years of war and trillions of dollars spend, that should give you an idea about how effective insurgence and small group fighting is.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Jon Irenicus — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:41:10 GMT

Eh, that is highly disputable. Given that it was granted a monopoly, how does it differ from a state, except that it is privately owned? Seems like a monarchy of sorts, not so much a private agent. Firms that are contracted by governments or other firms are a better bet, but even here government's recklesness and stupidity render it a bad idea to mention these firms as good examples of private armies, especially in the case of firms like Blackwater, which is essentially a private arm of the state.

-Jon

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Voievod — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:08:39 GMT

How would the following hypothetical states (from an alternate universe) survive?

- Anarcho-capitalist France against the German Invasion (WW1)

- AC UK against the German Bombings (WW2)

- AC Austria/Eastern Europe against invasions of the Russian Empire/Otoman Empire.

- AC anything against the Roman Empire.

To me it seems like the Anarcho-Capitalist states would get heavily beaten in each case, as it's far easier to send countless soldiers to die (or face execution) than to convince individuals that fighting against the odds is a better option than to surrender/run away.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Remnant — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:36:56 GMT

And isn't the Vatican's army made up of Swiss mercenaries?

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Remnant — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:29:23 GMT

What about the East India Company? It was granted a State monopoly to exploit India, and from what I can remember, Clive of India ran a pretty much autonomous army and conquered a sizable piece of India.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Remnant — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:16:36 GMT

Simon Lote:

Privateers - made naval warfare a commerical enterprise - were used in the American war of independence and war of 1812.

I believe that Elizabeth 1's navy (which claimed to have defeated the Spanish Armada) comprised of Privateers - Sir Francis Drake et al. It also explains why these same captains were so zealous in attacking and plundering the the Spanish treasure ships returning to Spain from South America.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Kakugo — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 17:15:29 GMT

Yet another example is William's invasion of England of 1066. His army was not a feudal levy, but a sort of congregation of adventures with him in charge as managing director. To save appearances (and get more money out of it, of course) the whole Norman baronage refused to serve him as vassals but decided to follow him wholesale "out of their own free will", ie they accepted to share risks in return for a share of the loot. The expedition also included very large contingents of adventurers from all over Europe, going as far as the Norman kingdom of Sicily.

And how to forget the First Crusade? All partecipants were volunteers and there was no national government behind, though a few contingents (for example Robert Curthose's) were financed through extraordinary taxation back home.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Twirlcan — Sun, 31 Aug 2008 16:46:18 GMT

krazy kaju:

I thought Executive Outcomes was hired by the Sierra Leone government to fight off the RUF.

Valentine Strasser ..the very young ex president of Sierra Leone is the one that hired them when he was president. He became president in a coup d' etat that came about when he and some other young officers came to visit the office of President Kanu and the president thought they were there to oust him so he fled. They had just come to ask him for their late pay. So he ended up in power by accident.

EO was also hired by the government of PNG to secure a copper mine on Bougainville. Oddly the locals did not want their home island destroyed by Mercury filled tailings and successfully resisted the predations of the PNG government and EO.

Right now, private militaries will be used and profit from states but there is no reason to believe that is the only way they can exist.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:32:11 GMT

Yeah, that too. Here is what I am referring to.

-Jon

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

krazy kaju — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 23:12:38 GMT

I thought Executive Outcomes was hired by the Sierra Leone government to fight off the RUF.

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 22:02:23 GMT

A possible example is the company the de Beers diamond corporation is reputed to have employed in securing Sierra Leone (Executive Outcomes), which succeeded in doing what UN peacekeepers failed at. The problem here though is that de Beers benefits significantly from state coercion.

-Jon

Re: Examples of sucessfull private armies

krazy kaju — Sat, 30 Aug 2008 16:37:15 GMT

Twirlcan:
Also I think it is good not to focus only on "private armies" that exist as profitable corporations. A militia or even a neighborhood watch could be an example of a successful private security endeavor even if no profit is made asside from that of protection.

I remember there was either a Newsweek or National Geographic article about Shia neighborhoods having armed militias to protect them in the Sunni Triangle in Iraq. A problem, however, was that these militias were limited in their arsenal and the extent of their operations due to law. Another example of the state screwing *** up?