Economics Questions

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

Jon Irenicus — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 17:57:52 GMT

Alright, fine, but it's going to take me two years before I feel confident in what I'm doing is correct.

Time is no constraint in academia.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

Forsmant — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 15:30:23 GMT

I think that arragance in presentation has pushed many away from Austrian theory and libertarianism.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

JonBostwick — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 08:22:38 GMT

SkepticalInquirer:

Is there merit to this? Should smaller and less developed countries that lack natural resources embrace nationalization of industry?

No.

Start a thread and we can talk specifics, I can't really refute them without knowing more about their claims.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

Fephisto — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 07:06:29 GMT

Alright, fine, but it's going to take me two years before I feel confident in what I'm doing is correct.

Mentioned this before, and there should be a link to a prior attempt of mine to do this on there: http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/3192/44247.aspx#44247

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

Jon Irenicus — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 06:51:40 GMT

Why don't you attempt it then? I see this suggestion a lot and I agree with it (as I said earlier on), but it puzzles me why the proponents of the idea don't get underway with it.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

edward_1313 — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 06:45:26 GMT

Solid_Choke:
What is the biggest methodological or theoretical shortcoming of Austrian economics? Also, what should be done to address it?

I think its major shortcomings are its lack of rigor, formalness, and precision. The economic theory that Mises, Rothbard, etc. have developed is, I think most of us would agree, correct, but I remember when I first started reading this stuff that I always wondered where the precise unraveling of the implications of human action actually took place. You always here that "based on the axiom of human action we can logically deduce its many implications and therefore arrive at an aprioristic body of economic theory".

Although most of what's necessary for a really rigorous economics theory text is present in MES and HA, they don't read anything like I think a logical step by step unraveling of a theory of economics book should read. Granted that makes them easier and more enjoyable but I think it would beneficial to have something more concise.

Just to give an idea of how it would go:

Provide a precise definition of, e.g., human action (probably similar to Mises).

State the theorem - e.g. all human actors regard time as scarce

Proof:

Show by contradiction - Suppose a human acts but that he does not regard time as scarce

Then if time is not scare all ends can be met simultaneously.

If all ends can be met simultaneously than there is no need to choose - i.e. humans do not act.

Contradiction - actors regard time as scarce.

And the book would go from one theorem to the next looking at specific areas, e.g. interpersonal exchange, etc. and prove each of the theorems.

It would be like a mathematical analysis book but it would make use of the language already used by Austrians.

Sorry for the long post. I just wish someone would do this. It could provide new insights, be refined, show whats apodictic and what's not, etc. And pretty much every thing needed is already in HA and MES it would just need to be shortened and made formal.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

SkepticalInquirer — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 05:31:18 GMT

I have a question. In discussions with friends I often get alot of criticism of the free market. They say that regulation must exist at some level especially in developing nations and economies where the government must nationalize industries and foster development. Is there merit to this? Should smaller and less developed countries that lack natural resources embrace nationalization of industry? I apologize if this question is not in the appropriate thread.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

garegin — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:14:16 GMT

the fact is that many austrians understand the issue very clearly. i remember block talking about the marxist dude who researched and found out that most regulation was made in the favor of big business. in my opinion, regulation doesnt really curb evil businessmen, it is made up by groups of businessmen with connections and very deep pockets to gain monopoly advantage over others.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

aestheticbend — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 02:08:54 GMT

Solid_Choke:

garegin:

even among clear anarchists like rothbard the "the freer the better" fallacy regarding markets. which results in many austrians and even rothbard praising the 19th century corporatism and imperialism as the best time of economic liberty. i understand that all know that the 19th century europe wasnt free market, but they still praise it as a great time.

This is one area where I think Austrian economics can improve greatly. I am sure that there are many instances where "more regulation" is better than "less regulation" that contains a more detrimental component. The current majorty view of Austrain economists is too simplistic in this case and should be rethought. Bringing in insights from institutional economics might prove fruitful in this case.

When you say bringing in insights from institutional economics do you mean saying given that currently the institutional structure has x properties it makes sense to do y rather than z? If so, I would agree.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

Solid_Choke — Sun, 23 Nov 2008 00:45:40 GMT

garegin:

even among clear anarchists like rothbard the "the freer the better" fallacy regarding markets. which results in many austrians and even rothbard praising the 19th century corporatism and imperialism as the best time of economic liberty. i understand that all know that the 19th century europe wasnt free market, but they still praise it as a great time.

This is one area where I think Austrian economics can improve greatly. I am sure that there are many instances where "more regulation" is better than "less regulation" that contains a more detrimental component. The current majorty view of Austrain economists is too simplistic in this case and should be rethought. Bringing in insights from institutional economics might prove fruitful in this case.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

DrunknMunky — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:54:34 GMT

auctionguy10:

Solid_Choke:

Jon Irenicus:

Didn't we have a thread like this a couple of weeks ago? Anyway, my main problem would be with the language we use to communicate our methodological views. It can be hard for anything but a philosopher to understand, and it makes Austrianism seem excessively disconnected from reality when the exact reverse is true.

Do you have any kind of solution in mind? How would one go about correcting the situation?

Don't mean to continue to rail this thread off course- but I think we already have some examples of how to communicate our views a bit more to the mainstream. Just look at the way Ron Paul or Peter Schiff talk about the economy. Not only do they make it simple to understand- but it becomes very engaging even if you had no interest in economics before. Those two guys are one of the reasons more people have been introduced to austrian economics in the past 2 years.

I agree wholeheartedly

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

auctionguy10 — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:32:00 GMT

Solid_Choke:

Jon Irenicus:

Didn't we have a thread like this a couple of weeks ago? Anyway, my main problem would be with the language we use to communicate our methodological views. It can be hard for anything but a philosopher to understand, and it makes Austrianism seem excessively disconnected from reality when the exact reverse is true.

Do you have any kind of solution in mind? How would one go about correcting the situation?

Don't mean to continue to rail this thread off course- but I think we already have some examples of how to communicate our views a bit more to the mainstream. Just look at the way Ron Paul or Peter Schiff talk about the economy. Not only do they make it simple to understand- but it becomes very engaging even if you had no interest in economics before. Those two guys are one of the reasons more people have been introduced to austrian economics in the past 2 years.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:34:50 GMT

Exactly. Your argument is based on libertarian ethical principles. Definetly not value-free.

No, it's merely the fact that anything one does can be considered sub-optimal once we define things that loosely.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

garegin — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 15:26:13 GMT

even among clear anarchists like rothbard the "the freer the better" fallacy regarding markets. which results in many austrians and even rothbard praising the 19th century corporatism and imperialism as the best time of economic liberty. i understand that all know that the 19th century europe wasnt free market, but they still praise it as a great time.

Re: Self-Criticism Time: What is the Biggest Problem with Austrianism?

Sphairon — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 14:22:04 GMT

I'm not sure whether this counts as pertaining to the Austrian paradigm, but the theory of man-made climate change through greenhouse gas emissions has, to my knowledge, not been aligned with Austrian economics so far.

I know of Reisman's approach that stresses the effectiveness of capitalist production, however, it misses the point of property protection and compensation. Other schools of economics may accept carbon taxes or cap and trade as an option, but I do not think this is the case for Austrians. Looks like a field for research.