Economics Questions

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

JonBostwick — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 02:18:34 GMT

eliotn:
that I am for the rich

Sure, we are so often told that we need the state to keep rich white men from "exploiting" people. But tell me again, who is it that runs the state?

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Solomon — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:02:19 GMT

eliotn:
Wow, I should show this to my mother. But then, they would probably retort with "people can't survive with these cheap alternatives".

Can you guess how she (and anyone else of similar sensibilities) would come to such a conclusion? What socialists do is set some (arbitrary) standard said to be the minimum needed for living (though they secretly mean the minimum needed to live without suffering, as though pain were unnatural) and then use the state to enforce that standard. Of course, they fail colossally in achieving their (ulterior) goal, and in fact aggravate the plight of the poor. From this they take a leap of faith and conclude their standards were simply too low. Thus the $4/hr minimum wage becomes a $6/hr minimum wage, guaranteed primary school education becomes guaranteed high school education, and so on. Needless to say, it's a vicious cycle.

eliotn:
Maybe this mentality, in part, comes from emmotion, not logic. I don't know, though...

That's always part of it. I would also say it's acting on an egalitarian impulse, since the standard set for the poor is based on its comparison with the lifestyle of the rich (can you imagine socialists demanding air-conditioned housing for the poor a hundred years ago? But it doesn't seem crazy today, although I suppose none of them advocate it since it would conflict with their environmentalism).

Donny with an A:
Perhaps you need to take a more sensitive and moderate stance regarding the kinds of changes you'd like to see when you're talking to people who don't understand? If you're really interested in spreading liberty, you should try to engage people on their own terms, not on yours. You'll find a lot more success that way.

Heh. Yeah, that's pretty sound advice. I wouldn't recommend actually arguing "they can always eat dog food, drink from the pond, and sleep in a dumpster."

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Donny with an A — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 05:02:58 GMT

Perhaps you need to take a more sensitive and moderate stance regarding the kinds of changes you'd like to see when you're talking to people who don't understand? If you're really interested in spreading liberty, you should try to engage people on their own terms, not on yours. You'll find a lot more success that way.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

eliotn — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 02:16:42 GMT

Solomon:

I would posit that she doesn't understand what it's like being poor. Those who think with a want vs. need mentality, as minimum wage proponents invariably do, seem to me incapable of imagining that those who lack access to clean water or a house to sleep in might not wither and die, but might decide to substitute a cheaper alternative, like drinking dirty water or sleeping outside (the way people have lived for most of human history).

That being said, it is worthy of note that many or most of the more viable cheaper alternatives are illegalized (expired food, etc.). In that regard the drive for higher minimum wages is ironically a response to previous state interventions (like most other state actions).

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the topic.

Wow, I should show this to my mother. But then, they would probably retort with "people can't survive with these cheap alternatives".

And for some reason, my parents get really angry whenever I get on mises.org. Guess they think I have silly ideas that will never work (about removing welfare), that I am for the rich (which I am not, and that if every welfare program was removed today, you would see hordes of dead, poor people.

They think of the business owner as this greedy person, who will exploit people every chance he can get. While this is true, in some part, it is due to Government Intervention, and the blame should not be put on the market.

Also, they think of the rich as this greedy person who witholds stuff from the poor. They think he should be forced to pay the fruits of his labor, because he recieved it because his parents were wealthy.

Maybe this mentality, in part, comes from emmotion, not logic. I don't know, though...

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Solomon — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:38:00 GMT

eliotn:
This is the problem:

Now when I try to argue about it with my mom, she rants at me and says something like this:

"Maybe you should try to be self-sufficient sometime. You should see what it is like being poor. Since you obviously don't unterstand, your argument against social programs fails."

I would posit that she doesn't understand what it's like being poor. Those who think with a want vs. need mentality, as minimum wage proponents invariably do, seem to me incapable of imagining that those who lack access to clean water or a house to sleep in might not wither and die, but might decide to substitute a cheaper alternative, like drinking dirty water or sleeping outside (the way people have lived for most of human history).

That being said, it is worthy of note that many or most of the more viable cheaper alternatives are illegalized (expired food, etc.). In that regard the drive for higher minimum wages is ironically a response to previous state interventions (like most other state actions).

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the topic.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Morty — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:05:56 GMT

liberty student:
Stop arguing with your Mom. I'm sure you love her as most people love their mothers, but this is an uphill battle with a lot of pain along the way and no guarantee of success.

There's nearly a guarantee of failure.

I have open-minded parents. They are willing to engage in debate with me. But I can tell that I will never win them over. You can make an irrefutable argument against them, and they feel no pressure to accept it. They remember you when you were a little kid, they remember raising you, they remember teaching you a great deal of the life skills you currently have (including the skill you are using to argue with them, speaking itself). There will likely be no point at which they will accept your opinion - whatever it may be, however well supported as it may be - as more valid than their own. Parents have a huge superiority complex when speaking with their children (especially the ones still dependent on them), that's just how it is in most cases.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

hayekianxyz — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:54:34 GMT

Tell her that without government, there would be more competition between companies and we wouldn't need a minimum wage.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

liberty student — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:09:38 GMT

eliotn:
This is the problem:

Now when I try to argue about it with my mom, she rants at me and says something like this:

"Maybe you should try to be self-sufficient sometime. You should see what it is like being poor. Since you obviously don't unterstand, your argument against social programs fails."

Stop arguing with your Mom. I'm sure you love her as most people love their mothers, but this is an uphill battle with a lot of pain along the way and no guarantee of success. Fight the battles you can win, until you are a competent enough argumentor to give yourself a chance.

I don't talk about liberty with family. Most of my elders have blown it, and cannot understand a radical agenda of being solidly antistatist. They are of "get along so we can go along" variety which is fine, they aren't very critical of me, and I do not tan their hides with logic in return.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

MacFall — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:52:34 GMT

eliotn:

This is the problem:

Now when I try to argue about it with my mom, she rants at me and says something like this:

"Maybe you should try to be self-sufficient sometime. You should see what it is like being poor. Since you obviously don't unterstand, your argument against social programs fails."

This is a blatant argumentum ad hominem. She could not argue against your position, so she attacked you. In particular it is an argumentum ad ductum (appeal to experience).

And I can find you dozens of "self-sufficient" and poor people who oppose minimum wages and social programs. Hell, I'm one.

Guess I must just be too bourgeoise. ;)

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Knight_of_BAAWA — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:07:31 GMT

Let her know that it doesn't matter about your own experience; what matters is the experiences of all the poor who would like to have a job, but are unable to find a job because their skills do not meet what the minimum wage pays. That is: they are unemployed because the wage is too high. So they turn to other things to support themselves, such as drug dealing and the like.

Let her know that minimum wage laws are merely one piece of the violent crime rate.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

eliotn — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:40:14 GMT

This is the problem:

Now when I try to argue about it with my mom, she rants at me and says something like this:

"Maybe you should try to be self-sufficient sometime. You should see what it is like being poor. Since you obviously don't unterstand, your argument against social programs fails."

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

duffmann808 — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:11:48 GMT

While we are being socialists enforcing a minimum wage, why dont we enforce a minimum profit margin.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:42:13 GMT

Here's a good, relevant post by Long on the state vis-a-vis the poor.

-Jon

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Donny with an A — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:05:37 GMT

Why would you want to argue against the minimum wage to someone who doesn't know economics and clearly doesn't think it's wrong to limit people's freedom of association? If you don't want to establish those points, and you're just trying to win an argument, I'd say you're missing the boat entirely. If you want to convince someone that the minimum wage is a bad idea, you should work on explaining to them how limits on our freedom of association and artificial price floors do not properly respect people's individuality and right to self-determination, and create undesirable economic outcomes which often end up hurting the very people the policy is designed to help.

Re: How to argue against the minimum wage to someone who does not know econ

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:00:56 GMT

She's probably one of those people who think a company can dictate whatever price it so chooses for its products.

-Jon