Economics Questions

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

Lord Shore-Twilly — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:09:22 GMT

laminustacitus:
Get a quality PhD in economics, not just Austrian economics.

A PhD is inherently the ultimate act of specialisation. So you don't get a PhD in 'economics', you propose yourself a specific question and then attempt to answer that question. For example you might ask what was the impact of the New Deal on a specific region, or what ever. You then try to find out.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

ricarpe — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 00:38:58 GMT

laminustacitus:

I would strongly recommend that if you wanted to actually pursue a career in academia to not worry about studying merely Austrian economics, and trying to find the university that is best tailored towards your own views, but rather trying to go to as prestigious of a program as possible so that you can become a vehicle for the proliferation of correct economics. Don't get worried about the "Austrian", worry more about the quality of the education you are getting, and how it will aid you. The last thing that the proliferation of Austrian economics requires is yet another arrogent anti-intellectual who believes that anything that steps outside of the Austrian fold is a heresy that ought to be purged; instead, I would urge you to learn the economics that a career interacting with the mainstream would require.

Get a quality PhD in economics, not just Austrian economics.

I'll agree with this, but with a caveat: Austrian Economics is not the programs title, or even its main focus.

GMU has an excellent graduate program in Economics (and it's undergraduate is as well). And, while it allows you to take courses that focus on Austrian School economics, it still requires you to take the micro and macro level courses, econometrics, statistics, etc. It's not a narrow-focused program that specializes only in Austrian economics and gives lip service or otherwise ignores economics as a whole.

GMU is known for it's Austrian offerings, but it is also known--and possibly better so--for offering courses in other 'schools' of economics: public choice, public finance, and law and economics in it's graduate program.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

Lord Shore-Twilly — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:53:35 GMT

GilesStratton:
I don't know much about the costs of living in the USA, so I'll take your word for it.

It isn't the cost of living that need cause worry, but the tuition fees.

GilesStratton:
Also, from what I understand there's a lot more opportunities for funding and TA/RA jobs over in the USA.

That depends on whether you are any good.

GilesStratton:
Let's be clear on this, there are no universities in the world that can match the "Big 5" (Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, UChicago) are far as econ goes.

I haven't checked the world rankings by subject for a good while so I'll confess to being ignorant of that.

GilesStratton:
but I think there's a strong correlation between prestige of the university and the resources available to the prospective scholar.

That depends on what we mean by resources. If you are studying the impact of the Chicago Boys policies on Chile, you would probably be best studying in Chile as opposed to travelling back and forth from a different country. But yes, more presigious universities have more money and with them better libraries.

GilesStratton:
Also, if you go to a top PhD programme you're going to be around the brightest minds possible, and that is probably one of the best experiences you can get.

Maybe.

GilesStratton:
I've read some interviews of top Mises scholars who say that events are vital.

They would, they want bumbs on seats at conferences. But the fact is you don't learn a great deal from conferences that you couldn't learn from the journals. Conferences are very good for networking, but little else besides.

GilesStratton:
Ah, I wasn't aware that you'd completed a PhD,

I haven't, I'm mid way through it. The point where if you quit you've wasted a lot of time and money to quit, but at the same time not far enough in to see light at the end of the tunnel. This probably explains why I'm such a bitter person.

GilesStratton:
what subject was it in?

PhDs rarely are in a specific subject, they tend to be highly inter-disiplinary. As a result you have economists in politics departments, politics students in geography departments, geographers in history departments, ad infinitum. However I am in a history department, and would describe myself as a historian of sorts, but I could just as well be in an interpol department.

GilesStratton:
I do agree that it is in large part a matter of motivation, but would you not agree that it does take some aptitude?

Not really, the work isn't hugely challenging. I would say that a student achieving an upper second could do a PhD, probably a student with a lower second too. The reason people don't do it is because universities set the entry bar unnecessarily high, because it costs so much, because they righly realise that writing 100,000 words is a hell of a task, and because it takes such a long time.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

hayekianxyz — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:44:21 GMT

Lord Shore-Twilly:
Far more expensive, I know a guy a who came to the UK do do his doctorate and he says it has saved him at least $10,000.

I don't know much about the costs of living in the USA, so I'll take your word for it. What I do know is this: if I were to go to a PhD programme in the UK it'd most likely be LSE or UCL, both of which are located in London. Now, I'm sure you've heard about the costs of living in London, but I'm not sure how it compares to places over in the USA. Also, from what I understand there's a lot more opportunities for funding and TA/RA jobs over in the USA.

But as I've said, I only just finished the first year of my bachelors, so I've not looked at prices for many masters programmes, let alone PhDs.

Lord Shore-Twilly:

You misunderstand me, I wasn't having a go at the quality of the degee, as much as the structure of the degree system. In other countries universities it is based purely on the quality of the research (though admittedly often with the utterly outmoded viva exam) which gives the student a far greater degree of freedom. For example you don't usually have to sit prelims in a British PhD.

As for quality institutions, there are plenty of institutions that rival even the Ivy League Universities. But it isn't necessarily the institution that should drive your choice, but prospective supervisor and research resources. Indeed, that should - if you are smart - probably play a large role than choice of institution than the reputation of the institution itself, which is just vanity. That said, vanity is one of the main reasons to do a PhD anyway.

Ah, OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. I already knew the systems were different. For example, in Continental Europe one generally picks a professor under whom they study, as opposed to the institution itself. But I wasn't aware this was a better system. Nor do I see why it is, although, I can see why the student would have more freedom in this sort of system.

As for the quality of institutions. Let's be clear on this, there are no universities in the world that can match the "Big 5" (Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, UChicago) are far as econ goes. And even besides those, there's not many places that can match other top US programmes such as Yale, UCLA, Berkeley, Northwestern, NYU, Columbia. I agree that prospective supervisors and research resources, but I think there's a strong correlation between prestige of the university and the resources available to the prospective scholar. Also, if you go to a top PhD programme you're going to be around the brightest minds possible, and that is probably one of the best experiences you can get.

This also leads me to one other reason for Austrians to choose the US, as somebody who lives in Europe I know that there's very few places one can go to learn Austrian economics in addition to the stuff you learn at university. Whereas over in the USA you have events organised by the Mises Institute, Cato and FEE as well as some other possibilities. I've read some interviews of top Mises scholars who say that events are vital.

Lord Shore-Twilly:
Even that is a major step up from an undergrad diss, which is typically 10-12,000. But even that is nothing to compare with trying to research and write a PhD. The fun novelty of the thing soon wares off (after about a month in my case) and then it is just a case of grinding away at it, and trying to keep motivated to get up in the morning. If I had my time over, I would have quit after the Masters.

Ah, I wasn't aware that you'd completed a PhD, what subject was it in? I can see the diffculties involved in writing a PhD dissertion from some of the ones I've read. The very fact that so many of them eventually become books speaks for itself. Perhaps I overstated my case, I don't know how difficult a PhD in economics is. I do agree that it is in large part a matter of motivation, but would you not agree that it does take some aptitude?

That said, from my knowledge of PhD programmes, limited as it is, I know that Econ PhDs are compatively easy. As I can imagine it be, in comparison to a PhD in one of the "hard" sciences.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

abskebabs — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:26:48 GMT

Wow, all this makes me wonder how the hell Mises published the bucketload of books he did while juggling his job at the Chamber of Commerce, his University seminars and Private seminar among other things... The guy was a machine!

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

Lord Shore-Twilly — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:29:34 GMT

GilesStratton:
and even for PhDs they're more expensive.

Far more expensive, I know a guy a who came to the UK do do his doctorate and he says it has saved him at least $10,000.

GilesStratton:
As for quality, that's just not true. There's no contest between the top universities in the US and those outside the the States.

You misunderstand me, I wasn't having a go at the quality of the degee, as much as the structure of the degree system. In other countries universities it is based purely on the quality of the research (though admittedly often with the utterly outmoded viva exam) which gives the student a far greater degree of freedom. For example you don't usually have to sit prelims in a British PhD.

As for quality institutions, there are plenty of institutions that rival even the Ivy League Universities. But it isn't necessarily the institution that should drive your choice, but prospective supervisor and research resources. Indeed, that should - if you are smart - probably play a large role than choice of institution than the reputation of the institution itself, which is just vanity. That said, vanity is one of the main reasons to do a PhD anyway.

GilesStratton:
For example, I plan on going to LSE for my masters degree, and provided I do well at an undergraduate level, I've got a decent chance of getting in. On the other hand, I wouldn't get into any comparable university over in the USA.

Yeah, British Universities need the money at the moment (student numbers are down); and foreign students are cash cows.

GilesStratton:
Are you sure about this? Because I'm pretty sure you're talking nonsense, and most graduate students will most likely tell you the same.

I can only speak from my own personal experience, I can't speak for anyone else. But like I said, it isn't the work that is the challenge, but maintaining will power and motivation. Three, if not four, years is a long time to study a single esoteric topic, and writing 100,000 words is a hell of an undertaking, and a great many people don't ever submit because it is just so arduous. You haven't done your masters yet? Well, if its a taught Masters, as opposed to an MRes or an MPhil, you will probably have to wite a 20,000 word dissertation (though some institutions only demand a 15,000 word diss). Even that is a major step up from an undergrad diss, which is typically 10-12,000. But even that is nothing to compare with trying to research and write a PhD. The fun novelty of the thing soon wares off (after about a month in my case) and then it is just a case of grinding away at it, and trying to keep motivated to get up in the morning. If I had my time over, I would have quit after the Masters.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

hayekianxyz — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:44:20 GMT

Lord Shore-Twilly:
I suggest that the OP look outside of the States to do a PhD, the US system is not only extortionaly expensive but utterly rubbish

What are you talking about?

Granted, at an UG level, the US is far, far more expensive, and even for PhDs they're more expensive. That said, if you excel in a PhD programme in the US, you've got a good shot of getting full funding, especially in a top programme. Keep in mind at a PhD level most universities have a vested interest in how well their students do, far more than they do with regard to undergraduates. Also, there's a number of other grants you can get if you're going to study in the US. As for quality, that's just not true. There's no contest between the top universities in the US and those outside the the States. If you're going to go outside the USA, only to return once you've completed your graduate degree, the only places really worth considering are UCL, LSE, Oxbridge and perhaps Warwick. The first two are the best out of those, but, they're run like American universities anyway. The only reason to go outside the USA for a PhD is that the universities outside the USA (perhaps excluding those in Asia) are easier to get into to. For example, I plan on going to LSE for my masters degree, and provided I do well at an undergraduate level, I've got a decent chance of getting in. On the other hand, I wouldn't get into any comparable university over in the USA.

Lord Shore-Twilly:

But I would advice against doing a PhD unless you have endless amounts of wllpower. PhDs aren't difficult intellectually, they are difficult because of the amount of self disipline required.

Are you sure about this? Because I'm pretty sure you're talking nonsense, and most graduate students will most likely tell you the same.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

Lord Shore-Twilly — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:54:29 GMT

I suggest that the OP look outside of the States to do a PhD, the US system is not only extortionaly expensive but utterly rubbish. You are marked not only on your research thesis, but also on a series of irrelevent exams, which has the duel impact of watering down the value of your thesis but is a complete waste of your time. It also meas that you have to find yourself a specific department that offers a relevent course. If you go aborad you don't have to put up with that kind of nonsense.

But I would advice against doing a PhD unless you have endless amounts of wllpower. PhDs aren't difficult intellectually, they are difficult because of the amount of self disipline required.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

hayekianxyz — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:14:41 GMT

laminustacitus:

I would strongly recommend that if you wanted to actually pursue a career in academia to not worry about studying merely Austrian economics, and trying to find the university that is best tailored towards your own views, but rather trying to go to as prestigious of a program as possible so that you can become a vehicle for the proliferation of correct economics. Don't get worried about the "Austrian", worry more about the quality of the education you are getting, and how it will aid you. The last thing that the proliferation of Austrian economics requires is yet another arrogent anti-intellectual who believes that anything that steps outside of the Austrian fold is a heresy that ought to be purged; instead, I would urge you to learn the economics that a career interacting with the mainstream would require.

Get a quality PhD in economics, not just Austrian economics.

This is a definately true. Moreover, even alleged "Austrian" programmes aren't entirely Austrian, you'll need to have all the math requisites and have to take all the usual courses. If you really want to do well in academia get into the top ranked PhD programme you can, whilst it may be more difficult and you may have to put your Austrians studies on hold for some time, at the end of the day your career and economic science will benefit from it. This means taking as much math as you can as an UG, speaking to teachers to get the best LORs you can get and possibly even getting a research assistant job somewhere. The other point that Lam mentioned is that you'll have the most exposure to the biggest variety of economics this way. I've read some parts of Reisman's Capitalism and he makes some terribly basic mistakes when it comes to his discussion of neoclassical economics. You don't want to me making such mistakes.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

laminustacitus — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:40:55 GMT

I would strongly recommend that if you wanted to actually pursue a career in academia to not worry about studying merely Austrian economics, and trying to find the university that is best tailored towards your own views, but rather trying to go to as prestigious of a program as possible so that you can become a vehicle for the proliferation of correct economics. Don't get worried about the "Austrian", worry more about the quality of the education you are getting, and how it will aid you. The last thing that the proliferation of Austrian economics requires is yet another arrogent anti-intellectual who believes that anything that steps outside of the Austrian fold is a heresy that ought to be purged; instead, I would urge you to learn the economics that a career interacting with the mainstream would require.

Get a quality PhD in economics, not just Austrian economics.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

ricarpe — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:09:43 GMT

ticktockclok:
I've heard that George Mason is good for Austrian economics for your doctorate. Is it also good for your undergrad? Also, is it necessary to get a master's degree in econ, or can you go straight to your phd?

If you check out their BA Econ and BS Econ programs, you'll see what they're teaching. It's undergrad Econ, your micros and macros, statistics, and then a you have your electives--which is where you fill in with as many Austrian/libertarian courses as you like, additional math courses, philosophy courses, or what have you...

ticktockclok:
Lastly, if you got a degree in something like philosophy, but took enough math on the side, could you still be on track for a phd in econ?

I'm waiting for the PhD Econ application process to open up for the Fall 2010 school year myself. I called and asked the Econ Department--I linked the undergrad contact info not grad program contact info, which you can navigate and find on their site if you want to--about the programs requirements and was told that they take a "total applicant approach". They'll be looking at the GPA, the courses you took, if you have work experience, etc. Basically, you'll want to build as strong a case for admittance to the school that you can.

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

svendthrift — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 03:43:48 GMT

How about a graduate program in economic history? Any recs?

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

Jon Irenicus — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 02:12:47 GMT

It matters to the university where you will do the graduate degree, but admittedly they are not as selective in the case of undergraduate studies. GMU/NYU are themselves prestigious though, so I don't think an undergraduate degree from them would disadvantage you in any way. I re-read your post and mine, and now I see what you were driving at, but I had covered that by mentioning that the graduate degree is the one that should be done at the more prestigious university.

-Jon

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

ticktockclok — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 02:09:09 GMT

Ok, but I'm asking about undergraduate. Does it really matter where I go for undergraduate?

Re: Getting a phd in Austrian economics

liberty student — Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:39:15 GMT

banned:

Anyone have any familiarity with Santa Clara U?

I think it is in Santa Clara.