Economics Questions

Re: Child Support

Maxliberty — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:11:23 GMT

banned:

Maxliberty:
I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care.

Okay, maybe you don't understand how rights figure into legality and what negative rights entail.

In a negative rights system (a libertarian system), an act of aggression can only be aggressive if there is a non-consenting victim (hence it is called an act of aggression). If there is no victim, it is not a prohibitable act and no obligation or reprimand can be linked to the action. That is the case with sex. Conception is not a forceful act upon the conceived being because that being posseses no rights prior to them being conceived and therefore cannot make a claim that the act of sex was forceful. Their claim would be ex post facto, so please explain to me why it is at all legitimate to make a positive ex post facto legal claim.

Maxliberty:
As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder.

Abandoning is the ABSENSE OF ACTION TOWARDS THE INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION. How in the world could you consider it a HARMFUL ACT? That's terribly faulty logic. If:

a = an action towards x (specifics are irrelevant)

b == an action towards x

how do you suppose a = b ?

Maxliberty:
And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers.

Which is why I'm not proposing defending murders. I think you'll find yourself alone in prosecuting non-criminals

Maxliberty:
In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.

Frankly, I don't want to go to some undeveloped area I know nothing about and have to work a year in order to be given freedom.

No matter how many ways you choose to phrase it I will not condone or accept your position that leaving children to die is acceptable. I have explained my position and you have explained yours and repeatedly tried to back away from your arguement because you don't like where it ends.

The Liberty Colony doesn't require anyone to go anywhere and work for a year to be given freedom. The Liberty Colony's goal is to establish a free society based on individual freedom.

Abandoning people under your care can certainly cause harm. Would you want your doctor and staff to leave during surgery? Would you want the pilot to bail out on your flight? If you think taking a baby out to the middle of nowhere and abandoning it so it dies hasn't caused any harm.....then you have lost all touch with reality.

Re: Child Support

Maxliberty — Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:00:19 GMT

katja328:

Maxliberty:

I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care. This is simple basic legal responsibility for your own actions. It could not be more simple.

As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder.

And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers. In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.

You need to stop using your "liberty colony" as an example. As far as I can tell, very few of us agree with your "business model" and your ideas of freedom.

The Liberty Colony is the only effort to create a free society currently in existence. You are more than welcome to enlighten us about the free society you hope to create and what actions you are undertaking to make it a reality. I won't hold my breath.

Re: Child Support

banned — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 23:15:21 GMT

Maxliberty:
I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care.

Okay, maybe you don't understand how rights figure into legality and what negative rights entail.

In a negative rights system (a libertarian system), an act of aggression can only be aggressive if there is a non-consenting victim (hence it is called an act of aggression). If there is no victim, it is not a prohibitable act and no obligation or reprimand can be linked to the action. That is the case with sex. Conception is not a forceful act upon the conceived being because that being posseses no rights prior to them being conceived and therefore cannot make a claim that the act of sex was forceful. Their claim would be ex post facto, so please explain to me why it is at all legitimate to make a positive ex post facto legal claim.

Maxliberty:
As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder.

Abandoning is the ABSENSE OF ACTION TOWARDS THE INDIVIDUAL IN QUESTION. How in the world could you consider it a HARMFUL ACT? That's terribly faulty logic. If:

a = an action towards x (specifics are irrelevant)

b == an action towards x

how do you suppose a = b ?

Maxliberty:
And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers.

Which is why I'm not proposing defending murders. I think you'll find yourself alone in prosecuting non-criminals

Maxliberty:
In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.

Frankly, I don't want to go to some undeveloped area I know nothing about and have to work a year in order to be given freedom.

Re: Child Support

katja328 — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:33:22 GMT

Maxliberty:

I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care. This is simple basic legal responsibility for your own actions. It could not be more simple.

As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder.

And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers. In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.

You need to stop using your "liberty colony" as an example. As far as I can tell, very few of us agree with your "business model" and your ideas of freedom.

Re: Child Support

Maxliberty — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:17:30 GMT

banned:

Maxliberty:
Yes, you will be punished. The fact that I rescue the baby from your attempt to kill the child does not leave you blameless.

And as I've said, it's neither an attempt to kill, nor a criminal action to abandon a child. You have failed to support your claim that it is with any legal analysis whatsoever, and only responded to my criticism of your attempt to falsly associate abandonment with criminality by saying I don't believe people should be accountable for their actions and that my argument somehow lacks logical support (kind of ironic if you ask me, given that that claim wasn't logically backed itself).

All you do is propose straw man's, craft false emotional dichotomies, and refer to my argument as a point where individuals in the freedom movement "fall short".

All you've offered is nonesense, and I would hope that when you immorally weild the power of your quasi-state to punish the parents, someone would come to their aid (despite how much I would detest them).

Anyways, going after non-criminals who were likely too poor to support their child in the first place isn't a good business model and you'll probably be out competed.

Maxliberty:
Attempted Murder is viewed as a criminal act as well by the SDK.

And? What's the link between that and abandonment. Murder is an act, while abandonment is the lack of action or the refusal to act in supporting a child further.

I have already explained the legal arguement. I will do so again. When you have sex there are possible outcomes, one of which is that you will make a person that is dependent on your care. This is simple basic legal responsibility for your own actions. It could not be more simple.

As far as abandoning people that are in your care to die not being a crime that simply lacks all logical basis. Once you are caring for a person then you are responsible at least to do no harm and abandoning the child where death is a certainty unless they are rescued is attempted murder.

And as far as people coming to the defense of child murders, I think it is you who will find yourself alone in the defense of the murderers. In the Liberty Colony you will have the opportunity to form your own PDA and come to the defense of these people. There are no restrictions in the Liberty Colony about you developing your security force. If you think you can out compete me then give it your best shot.

Re: Child Support

banned — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:37:44 GMT

Maxliberty:
Yes, you will be punished. The fact that I rescue the baby from your attempt to kill the child does not leave you blameless.

And as I've said, it's neither an attempt to kill, nor a criminal action to abandon a child. You have failed to support your claim that it is with any legal analysis whatsoever, and only responded to my criticism of your attempt to falsly associate abandonment with criminality by saying I don't believe people should be accountable for their actions and that my argument somehow lacks logical support (kind of ironic if you ask me, given that that claim wasn't logically backed itself).

All you do is propose straw man's, craft false emotional dichotomies, and refer to my argument as a point where individuals in the freedom movement "fall short".

All you've offered is nonesense, and I would hope that when you immorally weild the power of your quasi-state to punish the parents, someone would come to their aid (despite how much I would detest them).

Anyways, going after non-criminals who were likely too poor to support their child in the first place isn't a good business model and you'll probably be out competed.

Maxliberty:
Attempted Murder is viewed as a criminal act as well by the SDK.

And? What's the link between that and abandonment. Murder is an act, while abandonment is the lack of action or the refusal to act in supporting a child further.

Re: Child Support

banned — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:14:08 GMT

Stolz2525:
What is SDK?

His mini-state corporation.

Re: Child Support

Stolz2525 — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:12:07 GMT

Maxliberty:
Attempted Murder is viewed as a criminal act as well by the SDK.

What is SDK?

Re: Child Support

Stolz2525 — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:10:35 GMT

Maxliberty:
If the parent was contractually obligated to care for the child would it be unreasonable to enforce the contract? It is not simply a matter of personal choice, you don't have the right to murder children by putting them in dumpsters or withholding food and water. You are responsible for your actions and that includes creating children. Don't take the cowardly personal choice nonsense way out. Murdering children is simply wrong, period.

No, it wouldn't be unreasonable at all. I'm just wondering who you are imagining will enforce that contract. Practically speaking, it's much easier for me to go get the child off the street or out of the dumpster or wherever the parent has left it, take care of the baby and forget that the parent exists.

Re: Child Support

Maxliberty — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 14:47:31 GMT

Yes, you will be punished. The fact that I rescue the baby from your attempt to kill the child does not leave you blameless. Attempted Murder is viewed as a criminal act as well by the SDK.

Re: Child Support

Angurse — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:37:36 GMT

Maxliberty:

Yes, one of the difficult questions to answer in a free society is how to protect those individuals that are unable to protect themselves, like children. However, in a free society like the Liberty Colony you are free to offer a competing PDA service that advocates child murder or child rape or whatever. However, you are simply on notice that the SDK has adopted its own position regarding the protection of children and to the extent that you protect child murderers and rapists there will be conflict. Eventually you have to give yourself what I call the front lawn test. What actions of your neighbor that if you saw him doing in his front lawn would you take action on? There is no middle ground between you believing in child murder and me opposing it.

So, if I up and abandon my child (ignore his mothers whereabouts) this group will take the child in? But will I, the abandoner, be punished?

Re: Child Support

Maxliberty — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:58:43 GMT

Angurse:

Maxliberty:

The free market will have organizations like the SDK in the Liberty Colony that extend their services charitably to those unable to defend themselves. So for parents who murder or attempt to murder their children the SDK will act as if the child is a client of the PDA and take the same action as it would with any other client who has been murdered.

Wouldn't mean that the "SDK" has domain over people who never agreed to their services? Sounds a lot like child welfare and the police.

Yes, one of the difficult questions to answer in a free society is how to protect those individuals that are unable to protect themselves, like children. However, in a free society like the Liberty Colony you are free to offer a competing PDA service that advocates child murder or child rape or whatever. However, you are simply on notice that the SDK has adopted its own position regarding the protection of children and to the extent that you protect child murderers and rapists there will be conflict. Eventually you have to give yourself what I call the front lawn test. What actions of your neighbor that if you saw him doing in his front lawn would you take action on? There is no middle ground between you believing in child murder and me opposing it.

Re: Child Support

Maxliberty — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 16:51:22 GMT

Conception is caused by the parents actions and it creates an individual that is now dependent upon them for its care. Since the parents have created the individual that is dependent on them for it's care then they have an obligation to care for the child. If the parents had not acted the situation would not exist.

You argue that there should be no consequence to individuals that abandon babies to die. I disagree. Again, you are responsible for what you said and the fact that your views allow children to be murdered and you think this is allowable behavior reflects poorly on you. I understand that you are trying to distance yourself from your own arguement. Your idea that people can take a newborn baby into the woods or the street or wherever else to die and that no one should be held accountable when the child dies is ludicrous and is the opposite of a free society which requires accountability.

Again, I repeat on the issue of the third party that I have said that there is an obligation and that obligation exists regardless of whether there is an enforcement mechanism. My arguement is not dependent on there being a third party. If you murder someone you have committed a crime regardless if you are punished or not.

Re: Child Support

Angurse — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 04:19:48 GMT

Maxliberty:

The free market will have organizations like the SDK in the Liberty Colony that extend their services charitably to those unable to defend themselves. So for parents who murder or attempt to murder their children the SDK will act as if the child is a client of the PDA and take the same action as it would with any other client who has been murdered.

Wouldn't mean that the "SDK" has domain over people who never agreed to their services? Sounds a lot like child welfare and the police.

Re: Child Support

JCFolsom — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 01:36:35 GMT

If I had been placed, unconscious, on your airplane without either of our knowledge, would you not be murdering me if you chucked me out the hatch at 30,000 feet?