General

Re: Argentine Strike

Fephisto — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 17:50:23 GMT

UPDATE:

http://es.wikinews.org/wiki/El_Senado_argentino_rechaz%C3%B3_las_retenciones

TRANSLATION:

The good guys won! ^_^

Re: Argentine Strike

Juan — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:29:14 GMT

Or to take this even more bluntly, the politics and economics in these countries are merely the results of their people's mentalities, preferences and attitudes.

But this principle doesn't apply to the rest of the world ? ...why ? Also, the massive violation of individual rights that politics entails is just a consequence of 'preferences', so government is voluntary after all. All is good and well.

Re: Argentine Strike

Juan — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:26:38 GMT

Rule of Law is a concept/principle that is inherently alien to Blacks - For them it is about exchanging favors and gaining wealth by exercising power.

Of course! You are so amazingly clever !! Black politicians are corrupt - WASP politicians are not !! I'm so enlightened now.

I've had already "incidences" of (Black) cops wanting bribes and I was already harassed by police twice.

However, white cops are, like Jesus, angels...or something.

Re: Argentine Strike

Torsten — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:15:23 GMT

BlackSheep:
Are you kidding? Governments in poor countries in Africa and South America only have themselves to blame.

Or to take this even more bluntly, the politics and economics in these countries are merely the results of their people's mentalities, preferences and attitudes. At present we often argue about people like Mugabe in Zimbabwe. Consensus is that this is a corrupt regime in defiance of the rule of law. A shining example of tyranny, if you want. Now some people would argue, that "things will go better, after Mugabe disappears". Actually I'm not so sure about that. If Mugabe dies tomorrow their will be infighting about who is going to be the next bull in the kraal. So their is a good possibilty for a full blown civil war.On the other hand even with more stability anyone following will follow with the culture of entitlement. They've seen how it works and will have the taste for it as well.

So after all Ian Smith was right with opposing "majority rule" - That is by the way misleading, since Blacks in Rhodesia were perfectly allowed to do their own things on the lands they traditionally owned. For South Africa things are developing in the same direction. I've had already "incidences" of (Black) cops wanting bribes and I was already harassed by police twice. And then I am also aware of many corrupt practices of the present administration.

BlackSheep:
Their participation in international trade is minimal; we are talking of very isolationists here. They have high tariffs (30% and more) and are very adverse to general to foreign investment. These governments are mammoths that care more about providing services like transport, communication, education and health care services rather than having a sound police and judicial system. It takes you months to get a business permit or a property title; you have no room for entrepeunership there.

... The high tarrifs are a means of exploiting the people purchasing products that they no ways can produce locally. They are not even "protectionist", since they hamper national development as well. High tarrifs are of course another incentive for corrupt practices as well. As for delaying permits and title transfers. Simply try paying them a substantial amount for speeding up the process. Now wouldn't that be nice, if they really cared about the provision of services at all? And as for foreign investment, perhaps these investors should consider increasing the payrolls of the politicians - they might become more agreeable after all. As above, this all the result of certain mentalities that are dominant in those societies. Rule of Law is a concept/principle that is inherently alien to Blacks - For them it is about exchanging favors and gaining wealth by exercising power. The strong man is revered, as long as he is benficial to those he ought to feel benevolcence for (his family, friends and tribe). That is not to say, that there are no goog business opportunities in Africa - There are, but you need to know how the system works - And of course you need to leave behind any egalitarian biases as well.

BlackSheep:
Economist Tim Harford has written about poverty in Africa (and he has actually done research in the ground). Here's an article of his.

Thanks, I'm thinking of James Shikwati as well.

Re: Argentine Strike

Jain Daugh — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:46:28 GMT

Juan:

Jain, sorry about providing only a 'theoretical' explanation, but I'm afraid there is no practical way to work around this mess.

Thanks really Juan! Your response was 'real' and so insightful to me. I think how people DO respond is the practical aspect and only possible solution. What amazes me is to realize and understand (accept?) how what you described regarding how some benefit at the expense of others and that will continue because the 'others' won't make the changes needed to STOP that for themselves. Oh well, its good to know that some like yourself do keep a clear eye out as well as chose the best options available to themselves.

Jain

Re: Argentine Strike

Juan — Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:21:52 GMT

This place is especially weird with respect to money. Fact is, there's never been a long period when high inflation was not the norm. Argentina is one of the poster children for hyperinflation, like Weimar Germany, except that here there was hardly any war.

It really baffles me how people seem not to realize nor care what's going on. I suppose that in the short term a part of the population (say 20%?), does indeed benefit from inflation. They are the 'educated' keynesians, wealthy landowners, inefficient local manufacturers, etc. Thanks to inflation their 'businesses' seem to be profitable, but actually they are not.

Jain, sorry about providing only a 'theoretical' explanation, but I'm afraid there is no practical way to work around this mess.

ps: Some people have off-shore saving accounts (which is now illegal I think...) in Uruguay. So there's some sort of alternative banking system, but it's used by a few 'enlightened' people only.

Re: Argentine Strike

Jain Daugh — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:26:25 GMT

Juan:
Jain:
OK, how did one survive, even thrive?, when a money system collapsed (hooray!)?!???
Nobody thrives here except government officials and their friends. And in the long run all people, including those in the government, suffer - but they are too stupid to understand that, or too selfish, or something...

I would argue that the monetary system never really collapses. Thirty years ago or so you could trade a 1,000,000 pesos bill for a candy! In the last thirty years the name of the currency has been changed twice I think, and it dropped NINE zeros or more.

Here it is - a bill from 1983
http://oferta.deremate.com.ar/id=20398088_billete-de-1-millon-de-pesos

In such an environment there can be no honest wealth creation, so the people who 'thrive' do so thanks to the massive wealth redistribution that inflation entails.

As to survival...people here keep their savings in dollars, but a lot of selling and buying is done in local currency. The ones hit harder by inflation are of course the poor.

The government here is corrupt and inefficient - however that doesn't mean that people are left alone and are more free. If you think that a collapsing currency implies more freedom, I'm afraid you're too optimistic.

I agree with you Juan, just collapsing the 'money' isn't enough of a change because another 'money' just pops into being. After all its so simple to print zeros on paper! I guess I would hope that maybe, just maybe the sheeple will see that they are being held in ever barren pastures and yet still being required to grow 'fat' for the economic slaughter house that is the government. For sure the average person hasn't a clue about what money really is beyond agreeing with it being a 'media of exchange'. Why I'd go so far as to say that even university 'educated' (Keysian) economists are blind to this fact too, so how does a person who has been mass-dis-educated by the government schools have a chance to know otherwise either?

So I think that the BEST thing that any of us who don't want to be tampled by the mad milling of the lemmies is to prepare with alternatives that we actually need rather than chasing the brass ring of zeros on paper.

Best to you - Jain

Re: Argentine Strike

Jain Daugh — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:17:23 GMT

Fephisto:

Jain:

I could ask my father for more direct answers, but here's how I think my family survived.....

(etc. edited out for brevity - you can read original post)

Thank you very much for your reply Fephisto. I really do appreciate that insight - that when the Argentina money 'collapsed', people simply switched over to U$ dollars as a replacement currency. While I am happy that your family had that resource, isn't it amazing that time after time the government can create a 'money' system, run it into the ground (or should I say suck it dry?), simple say OOPS!, and then go right back to making (printing) more lousy fiat currency and because it looks 'new' or differnet, voila! its better?!? And changing to dollars isn't all that great if those who cling to them figure out that the U$A is pulling the same stunt with its dollars too. New colors, changing the pictures and all that don't make one bit of difference in the IOU value of the paper. Heck the U$ COINS have been phonied of late because the actual base metals (copper, nickel, silver) are WAY more worth the face value printed on them.

Again, sadly, because democracy is a numbers game, and the bulk of the sheeple cling to the ideas of control directed by aughorities, they choose to remain blind to the facts that putting someone in 'charge' is handing the keys to the treasury to them. And the 'authorities' love the fact that the vast numbers of sheeple support them - talk about self serving.

At least your family did retain access to important daily items like food and housing. Weathering such a storm is smart.

Thanks again for your input - Jain

Re: Argentine Strike

Juan — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:16:35 GMT

Jain:
OK, how did one survive, even thrive?, when a money system collapsed (hooray!)?!???

Nobody thrives here except government officials and their friends. And in the long run all people, including those in the government, suffer - but they are too stupid to understand that, or too selfish, or something...

I would argue that the monetary system never really collapses. Thirty years ago or so you could trade a 1,000,000 pesos bill for a candy! In the last thirty years the name of the currency has been changed twice I think, and it dropped NINE zeros or more.

Here it is - a bill from 1983
http://oferta.deremate.com.ar/id=20398088_billete-de-1-millon-de-pesos

In such an environment there can be no honest wealth creation, so the people who 'thrive' do so thanks to the massive wealth redistribution that inflation entails.

As to survival...people here keep their savings in dollars, but a lot of selling and buying is done in local currency. The ones hit harder by inflation are of course the poor.

The government here is corrupt and inefficient - however that doesn't mean that people are left alone and are more free. If you think that a collapsing currency implies more freedom, I'm afraid you're too optimistic.

Re: Argentine Strike

Fephisto — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:13:57 GMT

Jain:

I could ask my father for more direct answers, but here's how I think my family survived.....

Most of the places down there go ahead and accept dollars. It's a kind of dual-currency system. My grandmother has a secret compartment in the dresser in the living room holding a stash of a lifetime's worth of dollars (a lot more stable than the Argentine equivalent....I'm not sure if holding gold is a crime). One of my uncles is the equivalent of an H&R Block, so the '50%' tax rate is a lot more neglible for the family (I have a feeling that it works on a system of elaborate bribes to certain officials, bribing is a lot more accepted there (I personally think this is one of the few things Argentines have going for them)). Another one of my uncles is a farmer, so there's usually enough food for everyone. All the houses are made of concrete or sheet metal. So, if a disaster does occur, it's really cheap to rebuild, or there's a good chance you've weathered the storm. My two uncles and grandmother down there live together, so they can get along. If things get too bad, sometimes my father will wire money he's made from the U.S..

The last uncle was a little smarter and moved to Brazil, and sometimes does the same as my father.

Edit: And on the status of their populist measures. From what I see, it's pretty much a front. Sure, there are 'public clinics', but honestly, half of them aren't even staffed. The roads that are maintained by the government (save for one that is a major road between Brazil and Argentina) are pothole-tastic. Most of the roadways are private (I really don't understand these statistics saying most roadways are public, 90% of the time I've traveled there are on private toll roads), and speaking of the private roads debate, from what I've seen they internalize costs via bussing (if a road ups their tolls too much, the bus companies start to bypass it). Almost all of the firefighters are volunteer.

But seriously, I would characterize the government as a gigantic 'window shop'. There are roads that are funded a certain amount on paper that obviously can't be the case, there are clinics that are bare, regulations that ensure (take the telecoms, for example) a single company is only able to work, and it is the most croniest $#@! system I've ever seen.

Re: Argentine Strike

JCFolsom — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:01:12 GMT

BlackSheep:
Are you kidding? Governments in poor countries in Africa and South America only have themselves to blame.

Perhaps. What about in the Middle East, which has been manipulated, created, detroyed, tortured and controlled by one power or another for the full length of living memory and beyond? Are you seriously going to claim that their suffering is not in part because of the petty tyrants we prop up, or in some cases, even put in place?

Re: Argentine Strike

Jain Daugh — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:55:51 GMT

I am assuming that there are some members here that do live in Argentina. I would love to hear what they have to say about living/surviving during the last currency 'collapse' (if they were old enough to remember that is). I remember thinking at the time of that event - Whoa ho! Isn't this just the type of event that the U$A is heading for?!? And please, no political theory answers, I want actual, practical and usable responses. Its bad enough that the so-called citizens (aka tax slaves) are relegated to the position of peon cradle to grave, but HELD there by the monopoly grip of the 'money system' needs to be seen too.

OK, how did one survive, even thrive?, when a money system collapsed (hooray!)?!???

Jain

Re: Argentine Strike

Jain Daugh — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:48:51 GMT

JCFolsom:

Jain Daugh:
So you support the 'poor downtrodden' mentality?

Randroid, right? I am generally happy that there actually aren't that many of your sort on these forums.

WRONG! I don't think the sun rose and set over Alice Rosenbaum or what ever her real name was. Plus you totally missed what my objection was to the violin music that the original poster was playing - that as long as a person is ALIVE, its by making choices and using their brains as best they can. The minute one accepts the cloak of 'poor me', they might as well step into the gulag on their own.

Re: Argentine Strike

Superfluous — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:13:35 GMT

Wall Street Journal has had the best coverage of the happenings in Argentina.

http://online.wsj.com/public/search/page/3_0466.html?KEYWORDS=argentina&mod=DNH_S

Watch Out for Sovereign Debt Risk

From Breadbasket to Basket Case

Argentina's Failing Populism

Re: Argentine Strike

BlackSheep — Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:10:08 GMT

JCFolsom:
There are poor and downtrodden people in this world, and alas, it is largely driven by the "first-world" nations that fund their oppressors and keep them in power.

Are you kidding? Governments in poor countries in Africa and South America only have themselves to blame. Their participation in international trade is minimal; we are talking of very isolationists here. They have high tariffs (30% and more) and are very adverse to general to foreign investment. These governments are mammoths that care more about providing services like transport, communication, education and health care services rather than having a sound police and judicial system. It takes you months to get a business permit or a property title; you have no room for entrepeunership there. This creates such big governments that makes every Marxist rebelds salibating to the thought of controling it themselves, and of course, you have there the most corrupt countries in the world. Poor countries will only get rich when they get a better position in this index.

Economist Tim Harford has written about poverty in Africa (and he has actually done research in the ground). Here's an article of his.