General

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

kingmonkey — Tue, 20 May 2008 14:55:34 GMT

Andrew:

technically, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin can claim ownership of the Moon, They did mixed their labor with the soil, the planting of the flag. I heard about this guy who was on Letterman or Leno sometime ago who said he owned the Moon

They could only claim that small part in which they used. Not the entire moon.

You could own the sun if you could some how homestead it but you could only own that portion which you use, unless you could find a way to use every single inch of the sun. But then you have the problem of easements each of the 6+ billion people on this earth have against the sun.

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Andrew — Tue, 20 May 2008 13:57:36 GMT

technically, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin can claim ownership of the Moon, They did mixed their labor with the soil, the planting of the flag. I heard about this guy who was on Letterman or Leno sometime ago who said he owned the Moon

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

wombatron — Sun, 18 May 2008 04:16:25 GMT

shazam:

Brainpolice:

I have trouble imagining someone literally homesteading the sun. An impossibility.

Well, I have heard rumors that Chuck Norris has a vacation home on the Sun.

I thought it was a ski resort

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

shazam — Sun, 18 May 2008 03:30:58 GMT

Brainpolice:

I have trouble imagining someone literally homesteading the sun. An impossibility.

Well, I have heard rumors that Chuck Norris has a vacation home on the Sun.

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

wombatron — Sat, 17 May 2008 17:52:04 GMT

Brainpolice:

I have trouble imagining someone literally homesteading the sun. An impossibility.

Star Lifting

Pretty far-fetched, but you never know

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Parsidius — Sat, 17 May 2008 14:35:21 GMT

ViennaSausage:

Accordingly, an individual cannot claim ownership of a "property" such as the sun, if other individuals are already utilizing its resources? For instance seeding clouds to produce rain is someone akin to blocking it from the rest of the world. Building a dam upstream is blocking water from getting downstream. In these instances, property cannot be owned?

Only if your use interferes with their use of their property. Seeding clouds probably would not be an interference, since they already have rain anyway and it has to be interfere with their use of their property, though if you directly caused some kind of invasion (i.e. you make so many clouds that it floods and kills a whole bunch of people), you would be guilty of tort. If there is no one using the water downstream, it is fine. If not, then you must get their permission.

If there is no clear first use, but the property is utilized but multiple individuals, how does work out?

Whoever emborders it, I suppose. If a whole bunch of people passed by the same tree and ate an apple from it many a time, but never really did anything more, they would not own that tree since they left nothing substantial. Whereas, if someone ate an apple from a tree and carved his initials in it or put a sign next to it with his name it would be his property because there would be an objective sign of his first use.

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Paul — Sat, 17 May 2008 13:26:21 GMT

ViennaSausage:

Accordingly, an individual cannot claim ownership of a "property" such as the sun, if other individuals are already utilizing its resources? For instance seeding clouds to produce rain is someone akin to blocking it from the rest of the world. Building a dam upstream is blocking water from getting downstream. In these instances, property cannot be owned?

Seeding clouds isn't blocking anyone else's rain since they have no clear expectation of getting rain from any particular area of cloud anyway; i.e., it may or may not rain on them in any case. Unless someone else has done something to mark out that particular cloud as their property.

You can dam the river if there's nobody downstream using the water, or if you let enough water through that people downstream who were already using it can continue to use it in whatever way they're accustomed to doing.

ViennaSausage:

If there is no clear first use, but the property is utilized but multiple individuals, how does work out?

Define "property." (You're probably talking about multiple properties...)

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Stranger — Sat, 17 May 2008 13:09:24 GMT

If you were to create a sun, you could own it.

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 17 May 2008 10:01:13 GMT

So do I, but with the advancement of scientific technology...

-Jon

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Brainpolice — Sat, 17 May 2008 09:59:27 GMT

I have trouble imagining someone literally homesteading the sun. An impossibility.

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Jon Irenicus — Sat, 17 May 2008 09:45:27 GMT

I agree with Parsidius, but if you could somehow homestead it and allow users with easements to maintain access to it, you ought to be able to own it.

-Jon

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

ama gi — Sat, 17 May 2008 07:52:30 GMT

ViennaSausage:

From my understanding, in an ideal anarchcap world, everything would be privately owned. The forests, the oceans, land, perhaps even animals to an extreme. Two questions.

1) Can someone own the Sun? If so, I claim it for myself, and I lease it to everyone for free;). But seriously, how does the Sun and more generally Nature play into private ownership?

2) How does one claim ownership in general? By utilization? What if the utilization is just to let a property sit?

John Locke's labor theory of property (not to be confused with Karl Marx's labor theory of value) suggests that one can legitimately claim ownership of an unowned resource by exerting labor upon it and adding to it's value or making it more desirable*. You claim ownership of the resource so as to safeguard the value you have created against expropriation.

For example, you may find an abandoned lot of land and grow something on it, or build something on it, increasing the value of the land. You may then fence the land to protect the value you have created from being stolen or destroyed by other people (or wild animals, for that matter).

Nobody can take ownership the sun, because,

a) it is not unowned--living things have been using it for eons.

b) you cannot substantially increase its value

c) any attempt to deny others use of the sun would be considered initiation of force and subject to retaliation.

Does that make sense?

*Admittedly, I made up the part about adding value to something. I found it necessary to answer the question of what is considered "labor".

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

ViennaSausage — Sat, 17 May 2008 07:18:56 GMT

Thanks for the insightful response.

Parsidius:
1.) You may not be able to own the sun, since other people are already using it. For instance, you wouldn't be able to block it from the rest of the world since this would basically constitute an invasion of their property. However, you could secure easements on the sun, such as maybe making some kind of microwave beam satellite that can collect solar rays from nearby and beam them onto earth for use as power.

Accordingly, an individual cannot claim ownership of a "property" such as the sun, if other individuals are already utilizing its resources? For instance seeding clouds to produce rain is someone akin to blocking it from the rest of the world. Building a dam upstream is blocking water from getting downstream. In these instances, property cannot be owned?

Parsidius:
2.) One gains the right to own property from first use, since this is the only way to establish ownership justly and visibly (since it is already presumed from the beginning that use is something objective and there would be no dispute from second-comers if we use a first come first serve basis.)

If there is no clear first use, but the property is utilized but multiple individuals, how does work out?

Re: Privately Owned Everything.

Parsidius — Sat, 17 May 2008 02:58:14 GMT

1.) You may not be able to own the sun, since other people are already using it. For instance, you wouldn't be able to block it from the rest of the world since this would basically constitute an invasion of their property. However, you could secure easements on the sun, such as maybe making some kind of microwave beam satellite that can collect solar rays from nearby and beam them onto earth for use as power.

2.) One gains the right to own property from first use, since this is the only way to establish ownership justly and visibly (since it is already presumed from the beginning that use is something objective and there would be no dispute from second-comers if we use a first come first serve basis.)

Privately Owned Everything.

ViennaSausage — Sat, 17 May 2008 02:43:57 GMT

From my understanding, in an ideal anarchcap world, everything would be privately owned. The forests, the oceans, land, perhaps even animals to an extreme. Two questions.

1) Can someone own the Sun? If so, I claim it for myself, and I lease it to everyone for free;). But seriously, how does the Sun and more generally Nature play into private ownership?

2) How does one claim ownership in general? By utilization? What if the utilization is just to let a property sit?