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Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Autolykos — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 12:35:14 GMT

limitgov:
"Were you or were you not implicitly stating that I don't sound as "cool" or as "tough" as Bernie Mac did in that movie scene? Yes or no? I'm not going to let you try to change the subject."

No, I'm saying you sound as cool, probably even cooler than Bernie Mac.

No you're not, and you're apparently a bad liar on top of that:

limitgov:
you remind me of bernie mac....in some movie...i forgot which one....he [Bernie Mac] looks right at this dude...and says "watch how you talk to me"....only he [Bernie Mac] sounds alot cooler and tougher than the voice in my head.

So who is the voice in your head? It can't be Bernie Mac, since you're contrasting the voice in your head with him.

limitgov:
"Are you going to ask it again, this time with a fixed tone?"

Yes. but I forgot what the question was...what were we talking about again?

See this post of yours. I look forward to you rephrasing its contents in a civil manner.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Live_Free_Or_Die — Tue, 05 Jun 2012 11:35:37 GMT

I believe that the majority of people are good, but I know that there are many people who would take advantage of complete chaos and loot, rape and murder at will. There will eventually be an economic collapse, and when there is, all the fat, lazy assholes who've been subsidized their whole lives will go looking for their "fair share," no matter at whose expense.

I think it's well established in Austrian economics that humans pursue their own self satisfaction which is value neutral human programming. I do not have an opinion on whether the majority of people are good because I think all human beings are created equal in that they are all programmed to pursue their own self satisfaction.

I do believe the majority of human action at any given point in time is good. I am subjectively asserting good is not initiating aggression and I think it is observable the majority of human action at any given point in time is not initiating aggression.

In any event I mainly posted again in this thread because I keep seeing this phrase:

"breaking into your house"

I am curious if "breaking" implies property damage? If so, does entering through an unlocked door qualify as "breaking"?

Furthermore since borders are abstract imaginary concepts and it is impossible to know if you cross one without some kind of notice... what constitutes notice? If I am wallking through a residential neighborhood and let's just say no one has any fences to keep it absurdly easy to visualize... how am I supposed to know the precise moment I cross the borders of each parcel of property? Are there any responsibilities that offset the privileges of property ownership?

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

limitgov — Thu, 31 May 2012 19:07:34 GMT

"Were you or were you not implicitly stating that I don't sound as "cool" or as "tough" as Bernie Mac did in that movie scene? Yes or no? I'm not going to let you try to change the subject."

No, I'm saying you sound as cool, probably even cooler than Bernie Mac.

"Are you going to ask it again, this time with a fixed tone?"

Yes. but I forgot what the question was...what were we talking about again?

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Autolykos — Thu, 31 May 2012 16:43:56 GMT

limitgov:
Yes...your voice sounds just as cool as Bernie Mac. wait.....are you black?

Were you or were you not implicitly stating that I don't sound as "cool" or as "tough" as Bernie Mac did in that movie scene? Yes or no? I'm not going to let you try to change the subject.

limitgov:
yes, Mr. Auto....I will fix my tone. are you going to address my question?

Are you going to ask it again, this time with a fixed tone?

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

limitgov — Thu, 31 May 2012 16:41:07 GMT

"In other words, you were implicitly saying that I don't sound as "cool" or as "tough" as Bernie Mac did in that movie scene."

Yes...your voice sounds just as cool as Bernie Mac. wait.....are you black?

"Let's try this again. Are you going to fix your tone or not?"

yes, Mr. Auto....I will fix my tone. are you going to address my question?

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

triknighted — Thu, 31 May 2012 14:20:48 GMT

Autolykos:

limitgov:
yes....I said you remind me of him....

In other words, you were implicitly saying that I don't sound as "cool" or as "tough" as Bernie Mac did in that movie scene. Am I right? If so, then I'd like you to explain your point behind such a personal attack.

limitgov:
are you a teacher? come on auto....lighten up a little. have you and I gotten along in the past? i don't remember, but I do remember seeing your name quite a bit on some of my posts.

Let's try this again. Are you going to fix your tone or not?

How do you define tone?

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Autolykos — Thu, 31 May 2012 14:08:22 GMT

triknighted:
I like your Minerva response; it's perfect. Let's stick with that.

No, let's not. My response in that thread has little, if anything, to do with this thread's topic.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Autolykos — Thu, 31 May 2012 14:07:48 GMT

limitgov:
yes....I said you remind me of him....

In other words, you were implicitly saying that I don't sound as "cool" or as "tough" as Bernie Mac did in that movie scene. Am I right? If so, then I'd like you to explain your point behind such a personal attack.

limitgov:
are you a teacher? come on auto....lighten up a little. have you and I gotten along in the past? i don't remember, but I do remember seeing your name quite a bit on some of my posts.

Let's try this again. Are you going to fix your tone or not?

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

triknighted — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:29:41 GMT

I like your Minerva response; it's perfect. Let's stick with that.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

limitgov — Thu, 31 May 2012 13:19:37 GMT

"Is that part about "the voice in my head" referring to me?"

yes....I said you remind me of him....

"And are you going to fix your tone or not?"

are you a teacher? come on auto....lighten up a little. have you and I gotten along in the past? i don't remember, but I do remember seeing your name quite a bit on some of my posts.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Autolykos — Thu, 31 May 2012 12:37:37 GMT

triknighted:
You're making too much sense for many of the idealists in this thread. This is why I maintain that so many anarcho-capitalists/voluntaryists are idealists. They believe that people aren't naturally competitive; that the Hobbesian "fallacy" somehow precludes people's greed.

As I implied in my response to ~~Xarthaz~~ Aervew, anarcho-capitalism/voluntaryism is not the same as "propertarianism". Furthermore, I know of no anarcho-capitalist/voluntaryist that doesn't believe that people are naturally competitive. What do you mean by "Hobbesian 'fallacy'", though?

triknighted:
I believe that the majority of people are good, but I know that there are many people who would take advantage of complete chaos and loot, rape and murder at will.

I sure hope you're not implying that anarcho-capitalism/voluntaryism is the same as complete chaos. It's already been explained to you that those are in no way the same thing.

triknighted:
There will eventually be an economic collapse, and when there is, all the fat, lazy assholes who've been subsidized their whole lives will go looking for their "fair share," no matter at whose expense.

That may be, but I don't see how that's at all relevant to the topic of this thread.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Autolykos — Thu, 31 May 2012 12:29:36 GMT

triknighted:
I find this topic fascinating. Is there an example of a scenario you can offer whereby it is justified to shoot someone in the head after he is breaking into your home?

Strictly in terms of breaking into my home, I can think of no scenario where such would be justified IMO. An example where I think it could be (if not would be) justified to shoot someone in the head is if he comes at me with a deadly weapon, at which point I shoot him (intentionally) in the torso, and then he keeps coming at me.

triknighted:
gotlucky derails objective discussion with anecdotal value judgments regarding the ethics (or lack thereof) of proportionality.

I fail to see how this discussion is objective when terms like "justified" are used. I agree with what GotLucky has said in its essentials, if not in its entirety. He and I both see this as an ethical/moral discussion. So I suggest re-reading his posts.

triknighted:
Mr. Autolykos, I think you will give me sufficient material to better understand the "shooting in the head" scenario as I think that is the main cause of chasm between some members in this thread.

I hope the above helps.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

triknighted — Thu, 31 May 2012 12:03:51 GMT

aervew:

cmon guys.. dont pussy out of propertarianism when its ugly side rearrs itself.. if you believe in this, then you got to stick with it, even in the bad times. And agree that it is OK to shoot an intoxicated home invader that does not obey orders to leave the premises.

You're making too much sense for many of the idealists in this thread. This is why I maintain that so many anarcho-capitalists/voluntaryists are idealists. They believe that people aren't naturally competitive; that the Hobbesian "fallacy" somehow precludes people's greed. I believe that the majority of people are good, but I know that there are many people who would take advantage of complete chaos and loot, rape and murder at will. There will eventually be an economic collapse, and when there is, all the fat, lazy assholes who've been subsidized their whole lives will go looking for their "fair share," no matter at whose expense.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Laotzu del Zinn — Thu, 31 May 2012 06:39:28 GMT

Well that's probably unknowable to some degree. How can we know how many break-ins would have occurred had the homeowners had less defense rights in their home? Even if we try to compare two different time periods, how do we control for other variables? In this instance I see no reason why homeowners shouldn't have a full suite of protections against potential invaders.

Either way, I'm not intending to speak about the broader issue of crime control across all instances of crime, though I'm not entirely certain that a public with expansive defense rights is ever a bad thing. I'm more focused on one particular form of crime right now and that's home break-ins. I'm also not saying that proportionate response deserves no consideration, even at a gut level some punishments may just seem over-the-top. I'm just saying that I think both deterrent and proportionate responses are worth considering in this issue.

Fair enough. I don't think this issue can truly be solved without more conclusive data. For now, let's just say I prefer more leniency on crime in general; from the thought process that punishment is treating the symptoms, not the disease.

I have no idea, the act of breaking into a house seems fundamentally different from shoplifting from a store. There's different trade-offs to examine when considering executing shoplifters.

They're different. I don't think they are "fundamentally" different tho. Both involve a property owner protecting her property.

I would be interested to see both actually.

I think any cursory study of history will show that draconian law usually just exacerbates the problem... at least that's been my interpertation. As far as the fatal home invasions go... that's more just me thinking what I would do were I a criminal.

The source of the claim in the wikipedia article merely restates the claim that crime dropped after the implementation of three strikes, the wikipedia article then says "However, violent crime has also fallen in other areas of California where the Three Strikes law is not enforced. It should also be noted that punishments for homicides are extremely harsh, resulting in extremely long sentences, life sentences without the possibility of parole or even the death penalty, even for the first conviction, overshadowing any deterrent effect of the three strikes law."

Within the actual article I found this: "Crime generally has been going down since 1994; it's now half what it was in 1994," says UCLA public policy professor Mark Kleiman. "It's a spectacularly dramatic social change."

Kleiman says police departments have new crime-predicting tools and sometimes better community relations. Sentences are stricter, and there are more prisons.

There's another big difference between now and the early 1990s, when the crack wars were at their peak: "Crack dealers have learned how to do business without killing each other," Kleiman says. "In the early days, it was like a gold rush, and people were literally shooting each other on the street corners.

"They were also heavily armed and shooting each other over petty interpersonal disputes."

Kleiman says that has calmed down because "a lot of the people who would be committing murder in L.A. are dead, and the rest are doing life in prison."

I also found this study in the citations. It's kind of a long read. Of particular interest: "California has seen the longest and greatest drop in crime in the last 10 years since such records have been kept. The most remarkable part of these side-by-side crime drops is that at the same time California increased its general population by 1/3, which is a total reversal of what was projected, since more population has historically always translated into more crime....

The reduction in crime that occurred after the passage of 3-Strikes speaks for itself. Any objective assessment would credit 3-Strikes with playing a major role in California’s record crimes drops."

Ofcourse statistics don't always tell the whole story but I'm not sure that your source is in total agreement with your opinion.

"Total agreement?" No. Yet it is clear that the 3 strikes law could not have played that major of a role in the drop in crime, as crime dropped just as much where it is not enforced. Tho, according to your study, "harsh punishment" may have, so that is a different story.
It's interesting, and I will have to look over it. Perhaps in some circumstances harsh punishment can deter crime.

Re: 21 Year Old Shot in Display of Property Defense

Autolykos — Wed, 30 May 2012 23:13:51 GMT

limitgov:
you remind me of bernie mac....in some movie...i forgot which one....he looks right at this dude...and says "watch how you talk to me"....only he sounds alot cooler and tougher than the voice in my head.

Is that part about "the voice in my head" referring to me?

And are you going to fix your tone or not?