After giving it a lot of thought, I've realized that if the state has the power to use force to uphold a ruling against another state in the name of the majority, they also have the power to infringe on personal choice in the name of the majority. That's fascism.
However, I still do not see how a society can work without centralized force. It's a conundrum to me.
But I thought I'd try to be humble and admit that I realize that at least part of what you were saying was right.
I also do not see how morality has anything to do with any of this, it's just...logic. If an argument can be made to allow one thing to happen, it can be made for another thing to happen. It's simple cause and effect.
Because violating someone's rights is immoral.
Knight_of_BAAWA: Because violating someone's rights is immoral.
Why? Says whom?
Jacob Bloom: Knight_of_BAAWA: Because violating someone's rights is immoral. Why? Says whom?
Tens of thousand of years of collective human experience.
Our internal sense of morality isn't just a coincidence, its an evoluntary adaptation for social cooperation.
I also do not see how morality has anything to do with any of this, it's just...logic.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
JonBostwick: Jacob Bloom: Knight_of_BAAWA: Because violating someone's rights is immoral. Why? Says whom? Tens of thousand of years of collective human experience. Our internal sense of morality isn't just a coincidence, its an evoluntary adaptation for social cooperation.
I don't experience anything like internal morality. I don't think you do either. You just ask yourself "what's going to get me what I want?" And you do that.
Juan:I also do not see how morality has anything to do with any of this, it's just...logic. OR maybe morality and logic are intertwined somehow.
If they were, God would smite me if I killed someone. Or if anyone killed another.
Jacob Bloom: However, I still do not see how a society can work without centralized force. It's a conundrum to me.
Society is a broad topic. What specifically in do you think is untenable without centralized force? Chuches? Roads? Airports? Museums? Cabs? Beer? Hot Dogs? Apple pie? Shopping malls? Fine literture?
Since you believe the free market works in most of the above cases it would help to have a more specific objection.
Jacob Bloom:I also do not see how morality has anything to do with any of this, it's just...logic.
Jacob Bloom:I've realized that if the state has the power to use force to uphold a ruling against another state in the name of the majority, they also have the power to infringe on personal choice in the name of the majority. That's fascism.
Without making a moral value judgment how do you know that infringing on personal choice and/or fascism are bad?
Jacob Bloom: Juan:I also do not see how morality has anything to do with any of this, it's just...logic. OR maybe morality and logic are intertwined somehow. If they were, God would smite me if I killed someone. Or if anyone killed another.
Juan is not a theist nor was he promoting the idea of theism. I think you misunderstood him
Nerditarian: Jacob Bloom: However, I still do not see how a society can work without centralized force. It's a conundrum to me. Society is a broad topic. What specifically in do you think is untenable without centralized force? Chuches? Roads? Airports? Museums? Cabs? Beer? Hot Dogs? Apple pie? Shopping malls? Fine literture? Since you believe the free market works in most of the above cases it would help to have a more specific objection. Jacob Bloom:I also do not see how morality has anything to do with any of this, it's just...logic. Jacob Bloom:I've realized that if the state has the power to use force to uphold a ruling against another state in the name of the majority, they also have the power to infringe on personal choice in the name of the majority. That's fascism. Without making a moral value judgment how do you know that infringing on personal choice and/or fascism are bad?
1. Wars, courts, police. Infrastructure.
2. Because voluntary selfishness makes economies run. If you coerce people, you take away their ability to make decisions about what's best for them. Thus you bring economies to their knees. This is undesirable. Morality is about absolutes. I don't think in absolutes. I merely ask "is this the best way to get what I want?" I know there are more effective ways to get what I want than by killing people and stealing from them. I can just convince them to give things to me. And then they'll be there the next time to give me more.
Jacob Bloom: JonBostwick: Jacob Bloom: Knight_of_BAAWA: Because violating someone's rights is immoral. Why? Says whom? Tens of thousand of years of collective human experience. Our internal sense of morality isn't just a coincidence, its an evoluntary adaptation for social cooperation. I don't experience anything like internal morality. I don't think you do either. You just ask yourself "what's going to get me what I want?" And you do that.
So you have no conscience? What keeps you from stealing? Running off the road everyone who cuts you off? Sleeping with your brother's wife/girlfriend?
Nerditarian: Jacob Bloom: Juan:I also do not see how morality has anything to do with any of this, it's just...logic. OR maybe morality and logic are intertwined somehow. If they were, God would smite me if I killed someone. Or if anyone killed another. Juan is not a theist nor was he promoting the idea of theism. I think you misunderstood him
All laws require an enforcer. No one enforces morals. However, if I kill someone, another person will say "I don't want him killing me or anyone else, we need to lock him up!" So they do. Morality isn't enforced, logic is. Before you can murder twice you have to murder once.
Jacob: Juan: OR maybe morality and logic are intertwined somehow. If they were, God would smite me if I killed someone. Or if anyone killed another.
Juan: OR maybe morality and logic are intertwined somehow.
Jacob Bloom:They also have the power to infringe on personal choice in the name of the majority. That's fascism.
That's democracy.
Jacob Bloom:But I thought I'd try to be humble and admit that I realize that at least part of what you were saying was right.
What books have you read on Anarcho-Capitalism? Don't be afraid of saying none.
Nerditarian: Jacob Bloom: JonBostwick: Jacob Bloom: Knight_of_BAAWA: Because violating someone's rights is immoral. Why? Says whom? Tens of thousand of years of collective human experience. Our internal sense of morality isn't just a coincidence, its an evoluntary adaptation for social cooperation. I don't experience anything like internal morality. I don't think you do either. You just ask yourself "what's going to get me what I want?" And you do that. So you have no conscience? What keeps you from stealing? Running off the road everyone who cuts you off? Sleeping with your brother's wife/girlfriend?
I have an instinct about what I can and cannot do and get away with. I have an instinct about what is the best way to get what I want. I can afford things without stealing. Stealing big things is risky. Cutting people off the road is unnecessary. My brother doesn't have a girlfriend. If he did, and I thought she was hot and that he'd never find out, I'd probably screw her.
Conza88: Jacob Bloom:They also have the power to infringe on personal choice in the name of the majority. That's fascism. That's democracy. Jacob Bloom:But I thought I'd try to be humble and admit that I realize that at least part of what you were saying was right. What books have you read on Anarcho-Capitalism? Don't be afraid of saying none.
Democracy can be that. It could also not be that.
I'm not interested in anarcho capitalism.
Juan: Jacob: Juan: OR maybe morality and logic are intertwined somehow. If they were, God would smite me if I killed someone. Or if anyone killed another. Dunno. I said nothing about god... At any rate, having a system which is not consistent, i.e., a system that can overrule individual rights in the name of 'the majority' doesn't sound like a good idea after all eh ? =P
That's never what I wanted. But I realize now that I can't argue for free markets and argue that the majority is best served overriding the will of the minority with an army.
Jacob Bloom:I'm not interested in anarcho capitalism.
Then you're not interested in Freedom. What are you interested in? Imposing your will on others, right?
Jacob Bloom:All laws require an enforcer. No one enforces morals. However, if I kill someone, another person will say "I don't want him killing me or anyone else, we need to lock him up!" So they do. Morality isn't enforced, logic is. Before you can murder twice you have to murder once.
Seriously, get off the forum - seek out the books that deal with anarchy & law, free pdf's, go read them (I can't do it for you) then come back..
Hint:
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer
Conza88: Jacob Bloom:I'm not interested in anarcho capitalism. Then you're not interested in Freedom. What are you interested in? Imposing your will on others, right? Jacob Bloom:All laws require an enforcer. No one enforces morals. However, if I kill someone, another person will say "I don't want him killing me or anyone else, we need to lock him up!" So they do. Morality isn't enforced, logic is. Before you can murder twice you have to murder once. Seriously, get off the forum - seek out the books that deal with anarchy & law, free pdf's, go read them (I can't do it for you) then come back.. Hint: Market for Liberty by Linda and Morris Tannehil (pdf) (audiobook) For a New Liberty by Murray N. Rothbard (pdf) (text) (audiobook) Myth of National Defense by Hans-Hermann Hoppe (pdf) The Machinery of Freedom by David Friedman (pdf) Read. Listen. Learn. "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~ Herbert Spencer
I'm interested in getting what I want. It's really irrelevant to me how I get it. Except that certain ways are less problematic than others.
By the way, morals limit freedom. Because you can't do whatever you want anymore.
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