If you don't drink and eat enough, you are going to die. I would call that a "need", not a "want".
Or, a highly ranked want, as opposed to a "need". GG.
To darkness I condemn you...
Markus: Nerditarian:Do you have any sources? Mine's called logic. If Chinese people choose to labor in factories instead of farming like they did under communism it shows they prefer factories to farms. They could have choosen to stay starving on their farms when the capitalists came to town but they flocked to the factory. Why? That is a fair point. But what we had in China wasn't communism; Communists killing fellow workers and communists is NOT communism. We had some warped version of communism that descended into a totalitarian state due to outside pressures (the capitalist countries). Therefore, workers may be choosing to work in factories because it was better than starving on a farm, but that still doesn’t negate the fact that they are working for pittance in order to have a slightly better quality of live when the vast majority of the wealth is created for the factory owners (capitalists).
Nerditarian:Do you have any sources? Mine's called logic. If Chinese people choose to labor in factories instead of farming like they did under communism it shows they prefer factories to farms. They could have choosen to stay starving on their farms when the capitalists came to town but they flocked to the factory. Why?
That is a fair point.
But what we had in China wasn't communism; Communists killing fellow workers and communists is NOT communism. We had some warped version of communism that descended into a totalitarian state due to outside pressures (the capitalist countries). Therefore, workers may be choosing to work in factories because it was better than starving on a farm, but that still doesn’t negate the fact that they are working for pittance in order to have a slightly better quality of live when the vast majority of the wealth is created for the factory owners (capitalists).
Yes. Chinese Communism did meet the standards of crude communism. Deal with it. It was a dictatorship of the proletariat. There was supposed to be a totalitarian State. It was a DICTATORSHIP of the proletariatt, not a lovefest of the proletariat. And someone who just lavished praise on the Nazis and Soviet Communists and Castro's Cuba for christsake cannot be expected to be taken seriously when decrying any totalitarianism ever. Perhaps before you read that other stuff you should also google Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction? Psst...there are no laissez-faire capitalist countries in the world at the moment! However, there was a real Crude Communism something Marxoids support. and in this Crude Communism central planning of agriculture via the Great Leap Forward [sic] and other programs resulted in the average Chinese peasant starving on the farm. and when capitalist entrepreneurs were allowed to come in and offer them work they ran to the factories. Now there is a Chinese middle class! Automobiles in the streets! Thank Capitalism for this improvement in the life of everyday Chinese. While it still has work to do, it is freedom that has aided the Chinese thus far. If only, they would fully embrace capitalism they would be a pinacle of wealth and civilization from now until forever!
Markus: But what we had in China wasn't communism; Communists killing fellow workers and communists is NOT communism. We had some warped version of communism that descended into a totalitarian state due to outside pressures (the capitalist countries). Therefore, workers may be choosing to work in factories because it was better than starving on a farm, but that still doesn’t negate the fact that they are working for pittance in order to have a slightly better quality of live when the vast majority of the wealth is created for the factory owners (capitalists).
And here, good sir, we arrive at the real problem. Your theory doesn't take into account human nature. Any theory that fails to take this into account will simply end up with cloudy fantasies, and always wonder looking back, "why did that not work?"
Hence the eugenics movement's popularity with Socialists.
If you try to trick the market, it will get its revenge.
Solreyus
Jon Irenicus: I wouldn't call paying for food and water in order to survive a "profit". I'd call it slavery to the capitalist system. Or, you know, a natural necessity of life. Oh noes, we're enslaved to nature, cry me a goddamn river.
I wouldn't call paying for food and water in order to survive a "profit". I'd call it slavery to the capitalist system.
Or, you know, a natural necessity of life. Oh noes, we're enslaved to nature, cry me a goddamn river.
When did 'paying' become 'natural', i.e. part of 'nature'? I wasn't aware that non-sentient life forms had established trade or currency.
Markus: This slight lack of freedom in Cuba has everything to do with the US trade embargo which has prevented Cuba from prospering yet further. Any deficiencies in freedom in Cuba are to do with the fact it has a huge capitalist country on it's door step that is doing it's best to bring down communism. Not to mention other western capitalist countries against Cuba.
This slight lack of freedom in Cuba has everything to do with the US trade embargo which has prevented Cuba from prospering yet further. Any deficiencies in freedom in Cuba are to do with the fact it has a huge capitalist country on it's door step that is doing it's best to bring down communism. Not to mention other western capitalist countries against Cuba.
What does a trade embargo have to do with censorship of books? I mean, books are just cute little paper things that contain squiggly writing - hardly a battalion of tanks which will smash your Communist society, no?There is simply no justification for censorship. Unless your pet ideology is fatally flawed that is.
Base model cars of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but quarter-mile races.
Sentient life forms are also part of nature, FYI. "Paying" is just what goes into getting others to willingly surrender their resources. Nothing will produce itself and no one is forced to merely surrender their goods just because someone else has a "need", nor does having to offer something in exchange make it "slavery".
Markus: This slight lack of freedom in Cuba has everything
This slight lack of freedom in Cuba has everything
Markus:to do with the US trade embargo which has prevented Cuba from prospering yet further.
Any deficiencies in freedom in Cuba are to do with the fact it has a huge capitalist country on it's door step that is doing it's best to bring down communism. Not to mention other western capitalist countries against Cuba.
A. The Americkan Empire & it's western European satellites is not capitalist it's corporatist. Learn the difference, please.
B. How is it America's fault that Castro & Co. are not friends of civil liberties? You make no sense. Don't drink the bong water.
I must say, I didn't agree with everything in that inital post. It was actually posted on this forum http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/philosopher/499847-capitalism-vs-communism.html
Strangely enough, no one has actually comprehensively refuted it on there. Is anyone going to do it now?
Nerditarian: Any deficiencies in freedom in Cuba are to do with the fact it has a huge capitalist country on it's door step that is doing it's best to bring down communism. Not to mention other western capitalist countries against Cuba. A. The Americkan Empire & it's western European satellites is not capitalist it's corporatist. Learn the difference, please. B. How is it America's fault that Castro & Co. are not friends of civil liberties? You make no sense. Don't drink the bong water.
Markus: Nerditarian: Any deficiencies in freedom in Cuba are to do with the fact it has a huge capitalist country on it's door step that is doing it's best to bring down communism. Not to mention other western capitalist countries against Cuba. A. The Americkan Empire & it's western European satellites is not capitalist it's corporatist. Learn the difference, please. B. How is it America's fault that Castro & Co. are not friends of civil liberties? You make no sense. Don't drink the bong water. George Galloway blamed the US for any deficiencies in Cuban civil liberties in an interview on BBC Newsnight, I believe.
Why should I take whatever George Galloway said as gospel if it makes no sense?
Markus: Strangely enough, no one has actually comprehensively refuted it on there. Is anyone going to do it now?
See this post: http://mises.org/Community/forums/p/8834/226975.aspx#226975
If you disagree with that this is sufficient then surely it in combination with our expositions of the subjective theory of value, comparitive advantage and socialist calculation you can understant why we disagree with the entirety of the post.
How does the OP avoid the naturalistic fallacy when declaring the the "argument always fails to realize the true biological basis for socialism"?How does the OP reconcile that the revision to the ideology of communism has essentially required to differentiate itself from failed executions in order to stay a relevant ideology?How is using coercion to reduce or end further coercion not a blatant contradiction that essentially makes the communist no different from the statist, & possibly explains why the famous executions (*rimshot *) of socalism / communism have resulted in just another execution of Statism?Yet, just like communism, capitalism has always managed to only exist (in recent history) under the state, so while you make excuses for your ideology not being perfectly implented, how can you not make the same excuse for capitalism? There is even contradiction in your objections. I thought communists wanted to eliminate the state: why does every "almost sucessful" communist further the state instead?
WARNING: This signature violates Rule 5. Stay classy!
Fidel: Sorry guys, the US wont trade with us (most other countries will, just not the US), so I'm going to have to violate your freedom of speech, ideas, etc. But its their fault!
Jon Irenicus:Sentient life forms are also part of nature, FYI.
Yes, but their constructions presumably are not. Development of trade and currency was no more 'natural' than the computer upon which I am typing out this message. Both are the products of intelligence.
Only if you have some fetishised usage of the word. Trade, exchange &c. are very much natural, since they're expessions of the creature's that is engaging in them nature, and also on another level because it's even observed in primates. Then again I don't consider computers "unnatural" either, as they're just tools.
Lord Shore-Twilly: Jon Irenicus:Sentient life forms are also part of nature, FYI. Yes, but their constructions presumably are not. Development of trade and currency was no more 'natural' than the computer upon which I am typing out this message. Both are the products of intelligence.
Computers are killing us! They are unnatural!!! Ahh, run!
"I used to see a mountain as a mountain.. Thereafter.. when I saw a mountain; lo! it was not a mountain.. yet now of final tranquillity: I see a mountain just as a mountain as I used to.." - Master Yuan; molon labe
Fred Furash: Truthisnonexistent: The Soviet Union had a state, that state was also a ruling social class. This is true, but weren't the Platonic roots of Marxism intent on having a managerial class (equivalent to Plato's property-less Guardians). Hence the insane eugenics programmes to try to breed an elite, no? I am aware that Marx claimed to owe a debt of gratitude to Aristotle, not Plato, but some forms of Socialism can be traced back to Plato.
Truthisnonexistent: The Soviet Union had a state, that state was also a ruling social class.
The Soviet Union had a state, that state was also a ruling social class.
This is true, but weren't the Platonic roots of Marxism intent on having a managerial class (equivalent to Plato's property-less Guardians). Hence the insane eugenics programmes to try to breed an elite, no?
I am aware that Marx claimed to owe a debt of gratitude to Aristotle, not Plato, but some forms of Socialism can be traced back to Plato.
Communism's aim is to eliminate social classes. A managerial class would be a hierarchical social class which communism strongly opposes. It would be helpful if you could post some resources that portray these Platonic roots of Marxism that imply a managerial class.
Nerditarian: Markus: Nerditarian: Any deficiencies in freedom in Cuba are to do with the fact it has a huge capitalist country on it's door step that is doing it's best to bring down communism. Not to mention other western capitalist countries against Cuba. A. The Americkan Empire & it's western European satellites is not capitalist it's corporatist. Learn the difference, please. B. How is it America's fault that Castro & Co. are not friends of civil liberties? You make no sense. Don't drink the bong water. George Galloway blamed the US for any deficiencies in Cuban civil liberties in an interview on BBC Newsnight, I believe. Why should I take whatever George Galloway said as gospel if it makes no sense?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0TsQg-Qz2M&feature=related
Markus: Nerditarian: Markus: Nerditarian: Any deficiencies in freedom in Cuba are to do with the fact it has a huge capitalist country on it's door step that is doing it's best to bring down communism. Not to mention other western capitalist countries against Cuba. A. The Americkan Empire & it's western European satellites is not capitalist it's corporatist. Learn the difference, please. B. How is it America's fault that Castro & Co. are not friends of civil liberties? You make no sense. Don't drink the bong water. George Galloway blamed the US for any deficiencies in Cuban civil liberties in an interview on BBC Newsnight, I believe. Why should I take whatever George Galloway said as gospel if it makes no sense? This is the video in which George Galloway explains how the lack of democracy in Cuba is due to the US. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0TsQg-Qz2M&feature=related
He assumes that rights are curtailed in a war justly and necessarily. He assumes this should be done. That's not true. Rights are inviolable and natural. Furthermore democracy is also evil. If America goes to war with Iraq it's not Iraq's fault America installs the patriot act. It wasn't Japan's fault the US created internment camps for Japanese-Americans. Furthermore, as socialists your opposed to freedom of trade between individuals so you really have no moral or economic leg to stand on! Silly Socialists!
He rationalizes the governments action, he doesnt provide justification. "Rights are always curtailed in times of war". That isnt a rational justification, its just a red herring to distract people from the real issues, like why Cuba went from being more wealthy than most of europe to being a third world country, and why the average citizen is being repressed.
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