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The Climate Change Debate

Latest post Thu, Dec 27 2007 9:24 PM by Rich333. 16 replies.
  • Mon, Dec 24 2007 7:35 PM

    • Hollowhope
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    The Climate Change Debate

    I am currently a freshmen student enrolled at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and an avid anarcho-capitalist. I am composing an essay where I need to invent or endorse a government policy that would "deal" with global climate change for a scholarship. It pains me to admit that I can't find a solution that is consistent with the property rights. Though it seems like a tragedy of the commons problem like this should have a solution in the extension of poperty rights, I can't devise, let alone eloquate one. I have considered alternate proposals (Abolish the USFG) but I believe that there should be a simpler and more palatable (to the scholarship committee) alternative that doesn’t necessitate denigration of rights.  Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

     

     

    Also, please  no posts about  how  climate change isn’t happening. I am skeptical that climate change is largely anthropogenic  and of the deleterious effects it will have, but I need  to answer  the question  regardless.

     

    Thanks a lot,

    William Van Treuren  

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  • Mon, Dec 24 2007 8:43 PM In reply to

    • newson
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    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    Hollowhope:

    I am currently a freshmen student enrolled at the University of Colorado in Boulder, and an avid anarcho-capitalist. I am composing an essay where I need to invent or endorse a government policy that would "deal" with global climate change for a scholarship. It pains me to admit that I can't find a solution that is consistent with the property rights.

     

    i guess it comes down to at what price you choose to trade away your values.  your scholarship may  see you offered a prestigious academic posting where you'll have to champion keynesianism etc.(against your avid personal views).   it's a slippery slope...

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  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 1:04 AM In reply to

    • Kakugo
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    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    Hello.

    You could start working on the following scenarios.

    1)Climate change is happening but there's absolutely nothing mankind can do about it (the causes, as you said, are not of any importance): any measure would simply be a waste of resources which could be (from an Austrian point of viex) left in taxpayers' pockets or (from a traditional point of view) used for "more pressing matters", disaster preparation and relief being the most obvious. Yet a strong minority vociferously asks for "something to be done": this minority has very strong political links and can put a lot pressure on government agencies. What are we to do in this case?

    2)A "carbon tax" is enacted in some countries but others refuse to follow suit, for whatever reason. Climate datas are (as in reality) contrasting and don't seem to support either side's claims. Yet economic datas clearly show a  slightly stronger growth and improving lifestyles in those countries which refused to enact the tax while those who introduced the carbon tax show exactly the opposite. Do conflicting datas justify worse economic conditions?

    3)After a "carbon tax" is implemented datas are gathered showing that it's not really cutting carbon dioxyde emissions: people are simply paying more to keep up their previous lifestyle. In the meanwhile climate datas remain conflicting: some agencies claim the measure is a success (yet the same quantity of CO2 is emitted as before), other claim the climate trend remains the same, other yet that the situation is improving/worsening. In short the new tax failed to curb emissions. What are we do to in this scenario? Are we to implement more "aggressive" measures? Are we to dump the new tax altogether? Are we to cinrease the tax, hoping it will curb emissions?

    Start working on these...

     Yes, it's time for the Dr Goebbels show!

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  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 1:09 AM In reply to

    • Hollowhope
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    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    newsom - im not trading away my values, i am seeking an answer to an argument constantly made against my position. 

    kagumo, thanks, i see your arguements, but i guess i am looking for a way to extend property rights to atmosphere to alleviate this tragedy of the commons. this may not be possible, but there are many more adept minds then mine at this site, so keep the suggestions coming. 

     

    thanks, 

    will 

     

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  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 9:11 AM In reply to

    • xahrx
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    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    I'd look to some articles that have used 'market' solutions for fisheries where the fishing industry in certain countries has been allowed a share of ownership of the fish, tradable/salable and what not as well.  It's been a long time since I've read the articles so specifics escape me as to where they were put in place, but basically you see some of the benefits of a true market and private property rights emerging.  The resources increase, overuse stops, etc.  If you could implement some similar plan, yes tragically through the government, for the atmosphere, you might get similar results.  Also look up the prisoner's dilema, which is basically why all plans up to now have failed, such as carbon taxes and cap and trade schemes.

    As an example of such a 'property' based system, say each of the states gives an atmosphere 'share' to each of its citizens.  This share gives them a quotal ownership of the atmosphere and they then vote on a board of directors and set standards, independent of the government which serves no other purpose in this scheme, which state businesses have to obey.  Note the business owners if they live there own a share too.  The citizens and the board then have to balance use of the atmosphere against making it too hard for businesses to operate locally.  Do it on a state by state level to encourage a mix of standards and give businesses an out if they simply can't or won't comply with an overly restrictive state.  The who the board decides need to pay, pay the board directly, the money either goes directly to the share owners as a dividend of some sort or comes directly off what they owe in taxes.  I prefer the former of course.

    Of course there are some difficulties.  Air doesn't respect state boundries, etc.  But the point is I believe they can then be worked out between the various boards and through the courts.  The key is establishing legal ownership of the atmostphere but otherwise keeping the government as far out of the picture as possible, and certainly not making up a new revenue generating program.  As for other specifics like are the boards paid or not, are the shares tradable and what not, it's debatable.  The system would obviously be in its infancy so I'd leave such decisions to you.  Importantly though the plan suffers from no problems that don't already plague other plans, and it may even avoid some few by concentrating on at least a form of private ownership rather than communal ownership.  In that sense looking up articles here on privatization in previously socialist/communist countries is a good thing to do.  This idea for example is sort of along the lines of the ideas floated when the USSR collpased of giving the workers in the mills shares of ownership of those mills to end communism and start a market system.  The question in the end is how do you desocialize or decommunize the atmosphere.  It's not necessarily the same as merely finding a resource and bringing it in to an existing capitalist system.

    "I was just in the bathroom getting ready to leave the house, if you must know, and a sudden wave of admiration for the cotton swab came over me." - Anonymous
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  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 10:13 AM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    You might check out some of these sources on free market environmentalism.

     

    Yours in liberty,
    Geoffrey Allan Plauche
    Doctoral Candidate
    Political Science
    Louisiana State University

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
    (Who watches the watchmen?)
    -Juvenal, Satires VI.347

    • Post Points: 5
  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 11:47 AM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    I used to unconsciously suggest that humans caused climate change, but I do not believe in it anymore. I *never* believed that humans caused global warming. I *never* believed in democracy. I believe global warming is part of the New World Order conspiracy. They use regulations and abuse them so they can control us. The statistics for climinate change is biased. I read somewhere that gives evidence that global warming causes carbon dioxide levels to rise, not the reverse.
    • Post Points: 20
  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 1:41 PM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    Hi there!

    It's always nice to see other people thinking about this issue.  As some of you are probably aware, I've been working extremely hard on resolving some of the ethical dilemmas arising from climate change as my undergraduate thesis at the University of Wisconsin.  It would probably be excessive to attempt a full explanation of my position, but I suppose I might as well suggest some resources for achieving a better understanding of the kinds of problems that must be dealt with in the context of climate change.  First, some things I've written on climate change and related issues (unfortunately, Rob at STR doesn't want to publish any more about climate change because he can't get a good enough handle on the issue, so my publicly available writing on the subject stopped a while ago):

    Who Dares Question the Global Warmocaust? ; The Skeptic's Wager ; The Bjorn Ultimatum ; Putting a Price on Injustice 

    Second, a few essays I've read which do a good job of dealing with climate change and related issues from a libertarian perspective:

    Market-Based Environmentalism and the Free Market: They're Not the Same ; and an excellent response, Market-Based Environmentalism and the Free Market: Substitutes or Complements? ; Science, Public Policy, and Global Warming: Rethinking the Market-Liberal Position ; Common Property in Anarcho-Capitalism ; Liberty, Markets, and Environmental Values: A Hayekian Defense of Free-Market Environmentalism ; Another Take on Free Market Environmentalism: A Friendly Critique ; How Free Markets Protect the Environment

    In my opinion, the best work on the issue has been published in mainstream journals which require subscriptions or memberships to access.  I'll post a list of some of the best ones if anyone can access them, but otherwise I won't bother.

    Also, I've written a few papers this semester on issues relating to justice and climate change; if anyone might want to read them, let me know and I'll tell you what they were about.

    http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/

    • Post Points: 5
  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 2:57 PM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    I actually wouldn't mind a Pigouvian tax on carbon emmisions as long as it replaced our other taxes like the income tax. I think that would be a hell of a lot more efficient than what we have now.

    "Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it." -Milton Friedman

    "It is a mistake to think businessmen are more immoral than politicians." -John Maynard Keynes

    • Post Points: 20
  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 5:05 PM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

     I think Yandle's Grasping for the Heavens is quite a good article on how privatization might occur in areas such as the atmosphere, albeit it needs a bit of patience to be found.

     

    • Post Points: 20
  • Tue, Dec 25 2007 6:34 PM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    Bruce Yandle, "Grasping for the Heavens: 3-D Property Rights and the Global Commons," Duke Environmental Law and Policy Forum Vol. 10:13

    http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/cite.php?10+Duke+Envtl.+L.+&+Pol'y+F.+13
    http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?10+Duke+Envtl.+L.+&+Pol'y+F.+13+pdf

    Yours in liberty,
    Geoffrey Allan Plauche
    Doctoral Candidate
    Political Science
    Louisiana State University

    "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"
    (Who watches the watchmen?)
    -Juvenal, Satires VI.347

    • Post Points: 5
  • Wed, Dec 26 2007 12:23 AM In reply to

    • DonTread
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    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    Will;

       I don't see this as trading away your values (opinions will differ, admittedly).  I tend to see it -- for you -- as more of a potentially useful intellectual training exercise.  It forces you to crawl inside, or attempt to crawl inside, their thinking.  This however, isn't why I'm responding.

      I tend to see most of the IPCC/UN/Environmentalist crowd as motivated primarily by political, rather than scientific agendas.  I've come to this conclusion not because I feel that Global Warming isn't happening -- it clearly is -- or as clearly as I can make out.  No I think science has little to do with their motivations because of their proposed "solutions."  Hybrids?  Economic suicide?  Carbon taxes/credits?  Huh?  Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic anyone?

      No mention, No mention of true potential long-term solutions.  Things like solar power (orbital, not terrestrial), or the HE3 fusion cycle.  Both examples of energy technologies that respectively can, or very likely can, eliminate the need for carbon-based energy economies.  Given the amount of coin that they seem to want thrown at the problem, the cost of developing these technologies would be ... trivial.

        But that's just me.  I could be wrong.

      
     

    -- Brian Defiantly Libertarian since 1976...
    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Dec 26 2007 1:59 AM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    I think the worthwhile question in all of this is as follows:

    If, through our own voluntary actions, individuals alive right now were contributing to global climate change which would cause harm to people in the future, what would be the right thing to do about it?

    Say what you want about the flaws in particular policies.  If we think that people in the future have the right to not be victimized by our actions, then it is clear that the baseline recommendation should not be doing nothing.  We should be offering alternatives that we do agree with.  And if we don't think that people in the future have any such right, then that's what we need to be arguing.

    So as I see it, libertarians are generally having the wrong discussion.  If we're talking about proper responses to problems like climate change, it doesn't matter whether the scientific basis for concern about global warming supports the concern we see in the public sphere.  What matters is that global warming could be happening, and as economic thinkers and political philosophers, we need to be able to say what should be done in either case.  Only when we realize this can we properly deal with the role of uncertainty in the process.  Perhaps the burden of uncertainty should be placed on future generations, which would absolve us of considerable responsibility.  And perhaps the burden of uncertainty should be placed on us, which would suggest a more precautionary approach.  But if libertarians put their heads in the sand and align themselves with the most grotesque of conservatives, then they will simply be condemned to fade into irrelevance. 

    And that's what's been happening: widespread conservative-style ignorance of facts which offend libertarians' sensibilities.  The enormous majority of the skeptics' arguments are either based on faulty reasoning, or on controversial, speculative or debunked science.  The first category includes, among seemingly countless others, the observation that Greenland was once habitable, the time lag between historical temperature shifts and CO2 concentration increases, the proportion of total CO2 emissions which come from human sources, the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere, the relative atmospheric CO2 concentration compared with other eras in the Earth's history, and the observation of stratospheric cooling, all of which are in no way problematic for the mainstream's views.  The second category includes, again among others, the heat island hypothesis, Lindzen's solar iris hypothesis, Svensmark's, Friis-Christensen's, Lassen's, Soon's, and Balliunas' solar hypotheses, Gray's ocean circulation hypothesis, and the countless observers who cite unnamed and unknown sources of natural variability as the primary driver behind the warming we have observed.

    But the weakness of the standard skeptical position is made much worse by the fact that most of the people who defend it don't even make an attempt to find out what the mainstream views are.  Having devoted a considerable portion of the past two years to studying this issue, I can assure you all that being a skeptic about the IPCC's claims is fully tenable, but I honestly don't think I've ever heard any skeptical non-scientist make the arguments that would make skepticism a well-grounded position.  Further, while skepticism is tenable, the strength behind the mainstream arguments is extremely high, and it is almost inconceivable that they will ever be shown to be as fatally wrong as skeptics seem to suggest.  Does anthropogenic CO2 have the potential to warm the atmosphere?  Yes, absolutely.  Has it been responsible for at least some of the global temperature change which we have observed over the past century?  Yes, almost without question; especially in the last 40 years.  Can future temperature increases be expected from a business-as-usual attitude?  Very probably yes.  It is only in asking whether we can expect the kinds of increases predicted by the IPCC, and whether we should be concerned about climate change, that skepticism is defensible.  Otherwise, I suggest that people stop listening to one-sided propaganda.

    But even if all fears about climate change are debunked, and the global warming scare goes the way of the ice age scare of the 70's, libertarians will not be the winners for their mindless contrarianism.  People will still rightfully ask what libertarians would say if there were such a problem as climate change, and what better time to figure out an answer to that question than now?  It's time that we started dealing with this issue, and save our credibility as legitimate thinkers before it's too late.

    http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/

    • Post Points: 20
  • Wed, Dec 26 2007 11:33 AM In reply to

    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    "Does anthropogenic CO2 have the potential to warm the atmosphere? Yes, absolutely. Has it been responsible for at least some of the global temperature change which we have observed over the past century? Yes, almost without question; especially in the last 40 years. " I used to partially believe in this, but not now as I have seen counterexamples. Humans usually have a confirmation bias to ignore the counterexamples.
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  • Wed, Dec 26 2007 2:42 PM In reply to

    • macsnafu
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    Re: The Climate Change Debate

    The trouble for us anarcho-capitalists is precisely that, even if global warming is occurring, and even if it is largely caused by humans, we still would prefer for government to do little or nothing about it.  For Austria