Laughing Man:There are degrees of freedom
Freedom has no degrees. You are either free or not.
There are degrees in the comprehension of it.
liberty student: A free life is related to nature. As you said, a baby could be born with no limbs,the mother dies in child birth etc and the baby is alone on a mesa, bloody and hungry, hours from it's own death. Yes it is free. Yes nature will kill it. By your definition, then the aging process towards inevitable death compromises "freedom". Nature and circumstance are completely seperate from deliberate aggression from other individuals. In order words, freedom is related to man vs. man, not man vs. nature or man vs. his environment.
A free life is related to nature. As you said, a baby could be born with no limbs,the mother dies in child birth etc and the baby is alone on a mesa, bloody and hungry, hours from it's own death.
Yes it is free. Yes nature will kill it.
By your definition, then the aging process towards inevitable death compromises "freedom". Nature and circumstance are completely seperate from deliberate aggression from other individuals.
In order words, freedom is related to man vs. man, not man vs. nature or man vs. his environment.
Nice.....you are talking about Absolute Freedom.
Absolute Man Freedom is related to time. We are Born free.... and we lose it as time goes by….as the thinking process starts....
Harry Felker:Our application of Communism...
...What? That makes no sense.
Harry Felker:I believe that you are wrong in your analysis, the average person owned a piece of land, not a debt to a bank. The people now have complacency and commercial goods to lose, unfortunately this is more addictive than heroin and cigarettes....
Wonderful double think. I am wrong but you admit that people have more stake in economic affairs resulting in a reluctance to revolt.
Harry Felker:No crisis has a toll in human life? Let us take the innocuous financial crisis gone horribly astray scenario...
No one is going to have to pay with their life in order for the state to crumble due to a financial situation.
Harry Felker:"The Government" will be undermined by such, but not eliminated, action is still required to get it out, it is a nice story to tell children that Ghandi was the reason that the British left India, and he did have a profound impact, but there was much violence to this end as well, the nice story is the reason Lala Lajpat Rai and Bhagat Singh are never mentioned. People will starve and die, then some will act, is this not a price?
People starve and die everyday, are we more free because of it?
Harry Felker:Your mind is your bodies government, your body is necessary to keep your mind alive, but your mind in turn must respect and recognize the bodies need for food, without food your body cannot perform the functions to live, the natural state requires effort to maintain it.
Again a false analogy. We are discussing the natural state of freedom which is one without coercion. The multitude of coercion comes from the state apparatus.
Harry Felker:How is benign apathy not disrespect and non-recognition? The moment you have apathy, you have a scenario where the rights of individuals can be attacked or treated as privilege, just because it did not happen to the apathetic individual, logic and history dictate, a transgression on rights leads to more transgressions.
Because apathy is such that one minds their own business. No one ever became a slave because everyone pursued their self-interest and were apathetic to the happenings of others. However, if you feel I am wrong then present empirical proof. This 'preemptive' attitude is more likely to produce coercion based on reason alone.
Harry Felker:No, but you are prepared to take reactive measures...
Do not dictate my subjective actions to me. I don't walk down streets with my fists clenched ready to punch any poor soul who try to converse with me.
Harry Felker:Unfortunately we live in a world where a state is present, everywhere. This is why there is a price to pay to be free, even in the instance you live in a stateless region, there are still states around you that you will either protect your freedom, or not. Keep in mind, those that choose to not, often find that freedom is an inalienable right that crumbles under coercion...
A wonderful platitude that I dismissed with my first response. Do you deny there are levels of freedom? And do you deny that freedom is inalienable?
'It is difficult to imagine any normal person wishing to meet Marx for a third time.' - Alexander Gray, The Socialist Tradition
marquise: Freedom has no degrees. You are either free or not. There are degrees in the comprehension of it.
Well then we are not free and if the state were suddenly pass a law throwing you in jail for no reason then you are no more 'less' free. Do you concede this?
liberty student:Every man has a responsibility in a free society not to initiate coercion, not to defend against coercion.
The man does not "have to", but as history tells us things that are not treated with responsibility are not respected, not only by their possessors but also by others...
It sounds like the ocean, smells like fresh mountain air, and tastes like the union of peanut butter and chocolate. ~Liberty Student
Juan:What's the point of setting up a system, government, which is always trying to attack you ? It makes no sense. I expect service providers to provide services not to be a threat.
I expect such too, but I am prepared for a failure to respect their role...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:Our application of Communism... ...What? That makes no sense.
The United States has applied all 10 planks of communism outlined by Marx, not in a day, but gradually over time....
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:I believe that you are wrong in your analysis, the average person owned a piece of land, not a debt to a bank. The people now have complacency and commercial goods to lose, unfortunately this is more addictive than heroin and cigarettes.... Wonderful double think. I am wrong but you admit that people have more stake in economic affairs resulting in a reluctance to revolt.
I did not admit they have more at stake in economic affairs, they have more at stake in comfort, it is an inconvenience for them to revolt, life under capitalism is not easy, you HAVE TO produce, or you fail, people have grown comfortable in having what they do not earn, and not really owning anything other than useless crap...
What I am saying is owning a business is less a deterrent to revolution than owning a game console...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:No crisis has a toll in human life? Let us take the innocuous financial crisis gone horribly astray scenario... No one is going to have to pay with their life in order for the state to crumble due to a financial situation. Harry Felker:"The Government" will be undermined by such, but not eliminated, action is still required to get it out, it is a nice story to tell children that Ghandi was the reason that the British left India, and he did have a profound impact, but there was much violence to this end as well, the nice story is the reason Lala Lajpat Rai and Bhagat Singh are never mentioned. People will starve and die, then some will act, is this not a price? People starve and die everyday, are we more free because of it?
No, people are going to have to die in the process of the state crumbling, but as Russia teaches us, just because it crumbles does not mean it goes away either...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:How is benign apathy not disrespect and non-recognition? The moment you have apathy, you have a scenario where the rights of individuals can be attacked or treated as privilege, just because it did not happen to the apathetic individual, logic and history dictate, a transgression on rights leads to more transgressions. Because apathy is such that one minds their own business. No one ever became a slave because everyone pursued their self-interest and were apathetic to the happenings of others. However, if you feel I am wrong then present empirical proof. This 'preemptive' attitude is more likely to produce coercion based on reason alone.
US Gun Law...
First it was created to keep black people from owning them, then the government realized that nobody cared (apathy), so it expanded, eventually we have the situation that we have today, heavily regulated gun ownership as a privilege as opposed to an inalienable right of man to self defense....
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:No, but you are prepared to take reactive measures... Do not dictate my subjective actions to me. I don't walk down streets with my fists clenched ready to punch any poor soul who try to converse with me.
I did not say that you did, are you saying that you are unfit to defend yourself and hope that all others abide by a NAP, and if they don't you take your lumps and go home, you are taking the simple act of knowing that your defense is your responsibility and turning into I am going to kick everyone's *** that approaches me...
Prepared and preemptive are two different concepts, preparedness is the realization that you may have to react to uexpected situation, preemption is assuming a situation and acting before the situation arrives....
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:Unfortunately we live in a world where a state is present, everywhere. This is why there is a price to pay to be free, even in the instance you live in a stateless region, there are still states around you that you will either protect your freedom, or not. Keep in mind, those that choose to not, often find that freedom is an inalienable right that crumbles under coercion... A wonderful platitude that I dismissed with my first response. Do you deny there are levels of freedom? And do you deny that freedom is inalienable?
I do not understand how you can define a level to freedom, there is no grey for me, and this is my opinion, if you have less than total freedom, you are not free, I do not ask you to share it...
Do you deny that people are coerced away from freedom? You are only free until aggression is applied and you do not defend against it...
Is a man free when he is in shackles?
Harry Felker:The United States has applied all 10 planks of communism outlined by Marx, not in a day, but gradually over time....
Yes...I'm waiting for how this justifies the reduction of government. I never postulated that the growth of government is stagnant, quite the contrary it is always growing
Harry Felker:I did not admit they have more at stake in economic affairs, they have more at stake in comfort, it is an inconvenience for them to revolt, life under capitalism is not easy, you HAVE TO produce, or you fail, people have grown comfortable in having what they do not earn, and not really owning anything other than useless crap...
I call that economic affairs.
Harry Felker: No, people are going to have to die in the process of the state crumbling, but as Russia teaches us, just because it crumbles does not mean it goes away either...
What is true of Russia is not necessarily true of the United States. And what is this fascination with sacrifice? What are you trying to become a history textbook hero?
Harry Felker: US Gun Law... First it was created to keep black people from owning them, then the government realized that nobody cared (apathy), so it expanded, eventually we have the situation that we have today, heavily regulated gun ownership as a privilege as opposed to an inalienable right of man to self defense....
Obviously that is not following my example of EVERYONE being apathetic. Clearly someone took preemptive action towards establishing their dominance over other beings.
Harry Felker:I did not say that you did, are you saying that you are unfit to defend yourself and hope that all others abide by a NAP, and if they don't you take your lumps and go home, you are taking the simple act of knowing that your defense is your responsibility and turning into I am going to kick everyone's *** that approaches me...
I am fit to defend myself but that is the natural state of things. Being able to defend yourself is not an exception.
Harry Felker:Prepared and preemptive are two different concepts, preparedness is the realization that you may have to react to uexpected situation, preemption is assuming a situation and acting before the situation arrives....
Sitting around and theorizing different unexpected events and how you will react to them (oddly enough an inconsistent action) is a waste of brain power in my mind. You seem to implictently imply that 50+1% of society is out to cage you up or restrict your freedom.
Harry Felker: I do not understand how you can define a level to freedom, there is no grey for me, and this is my opinion, if you have less than total freedom, you are not free, I do not ask you to share it... Do you deny that people are coerced away from freedom? You are only free until aggression is applied and you do not defend against it... Is a man free when he is in shackles?
If you feel it is a black and white issue then I will propose the same question I did to another in this topic with like-minded ideas. If the government were to establish legislation throwing you in jail for no cause, then would you be more 'unfree'? If your answer is yes, then you are establishing degrees of freedom and therefore 'grayness'. You seem to have been bitten by the romanticized idealism bug where anything but total freedom is intolerable yet if such were true then why are you on LvMI speaking your mind in such a blahzay format. Intolerability should mean you are hitting the streets trying to start your own revolution. Go at it John Connor. I'm not some Hegelian who thinks that this is the plateau of human political evolution, however I'm not so foolish to think that what we have now is 'intolerable.' Of course it could get a lot worse but to concede that is to concede degrees of freedom and that seems to be incomprehensible to you. I do not ask you to share it...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:The United States has applied all 10 planks of communism outlined by Marx, not in a day, but gradually over time.... Yes...I'm waiting for how this justifies the reduction of government. I never postulated that the growth of government is stagnant, quite the contrary it is always growing
Never said it did, I said it was gradualism at work...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:I did not admit they have more at stake in economic affairs, they have more at stake in comfort, it is an inconvenience for them to revolt, life under capitalism is not easy, you HAVE TO produce, or you fail, people have grown comfortable in having what they do not earn, and not really owning anything other than useless crap... I call that economic affairs.
I call that indoctrinated complacency...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker: No, people are going to have to die in the process of the state crumbling, but as Russia teaches us, just because it crumbles does not mean it goes away either... What is true of Russia is not necessarily true of the United States. And what is this fascination with sacrifice?
What is true of Russia is not necessarily true of the United States. And what is this fascination with sacrifice?
No, but if we use history as our example of what will likely happen, we cannot deny the possibility...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker: US Gun Law... First it was created to keep black people from owning them, then the government realized that nobody cared (apathy), so it expanded, eventually we have the situation that we have today, heavily regulated gun ownership as a privilege as opposed to an inalienable right of man to self defense.... Obviously that is not following my example of EVERYONE being apathetic. Clearly someone took preemptive action towards establishing their dominance over other beings.
Only the people not effected need be apathetic, and again history has shown us that this process works time and time again...
Laughing Man: Harry Felker:Prepared and preemptive are two different concepts, preparedness is the realization that you may have to react to uexpected situation, preemption is assuming a situation and acting before the situation arrives.... Sitting around and theorizing different unexpected events and how you will react to them (oddly enough an inconsistent action) is a waste of brain power in my mind. You seem to implictently imply that 50+1% of society is out to cage you up or restrict your freedom.
I am not theorizing anything, I am noting that the unexpected can happen and I will have to adjust to such, just adding the wiseness in preparing for the unexpected...
Laughing Man:If you feel it is a black and white issue then I will propose the same question I did to another in this topic with like-minded ideas. If the government were to establish legislation throwing you in jail for no cause, then would you be more 'unfree'?
No, you are just not free when your life is at the whim of the government, any "level" percieved is just toleration of a lack in freedom...
Laughing Man:You seem to have been bitten by the romanticized idealism bug where anything but total freedom is intolerable yet if such were true then why are you on LvMI speaking your mind in such a blahzay format. Intolerability should mean you are hitting the streets trying to start your own revolution.
I understand that the war of ideas has a long way to go before we can hit the streets, we have a government with more power and a propaganda machine at their aid, and then there are the numbers issues....
I have no desire to form a cult of personality to defeat the current one, I find the notion hypocritical...
Laughing Man:I'm not some Hegelian who thinks that this is the plateau of human political evolution, however I'm not so foolish to think that what we have now is 'intolerable.' Of course it could get a lot worse but to concede that is to concede degrees of freedom and that seems to be incomprehensible to you.
It is not a case of degrees of freedom, when you have freedom you are just free, I believe you are talking about degrees of tyranny, much like when you have a society it is free or it is statist, the degrees are in statism, not in freedom...
In a free society, as I see it, one is free to do immoral acts, take life for example, but the consequences of such an action will be that individual's to bear....
Harry Felker:The man does not "have to", but as history tells us things that are not treated with responsibility are not respected, not only by their possessors but also by others...
Right but that still doesn't mean that one should conflate liberty with a positive responsiblity.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Harry Felker: Juan: What's the point of setting up a system, government, which is always trying to attack you ? It makes no sense. I expect service providers to provide services not to be a threat. I expect such too, but I am prepared for a failure to respect their role...
Juan: What's the point of setting up a system, government, which is always trying to attack you ? It makes no sense. I expect service providers to provide services not to be a threat.
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Juan: Harry Felker: Juan: What's the point of setting up a system, government, which is always trying to attack you ? It makes no sense. I expect service providers to provide services not to be a threat. I expect such too, but I am prepared for a failure to respect their role... Would you grant monopoly status to the grocery owner ? What for ? And if you did, would you expect him to charge low prices ? But it gets even more absurd - would you grant monopoly status to a grocery owner that you know is an outright criminal ?
I do not see how being on guard against government intrusion automatically assumes there is a monopoly in government, even in the absence of government on your particular domain does not guarantee that a government will not use force to exert control over you....
liberty student: Harry Felker:The man does not "have to", but as history tells us things that are not treated with responsibility are not respected, not only by their possessors but also by others... Right but that still doesn't mean that one should conflate liberty with a positive responsiblity.
My determination through fact and logic is more of a path to success in order to live free...
I will concede that you do not "have to" do anything to live free, but with that said, history proves you will not be free for long before coercion comes your way, and if you continue to do nothing, you will not live free...
I do not see how being on guard against government intrusion automatically assumes there is a monopoly in government,
Juan:I do not see how being on guard against government intrusion automatically assumes there is a monopoly in government, Oh. Are you an anarchist now ? =]
Not exactly, I am open to it, but I do not think it is really workable...
Harry Felker:Yes...I'm waiting for how this justifies the reduction of government. I never postulated that the growth of government is stagnant, quite the contrary it is always growing
Obviously since we are not Communists I meant the gradual reduction of the State itself.
Harry Felker:I call that indoctrinated complacency...
Are you blaming capitalism for people becoming 'complacent'?
Harry Felker:No, but if we use history as our example of what will likely happen, we cannot deny the possibility...
One cannot use history to on one hand justify one's argument then on the other refuse to acknowledge history [showing that no government has reduced its size over a period of time]. Also I would say that historical is not cycical or deterministic so simply stating, 'well it happened in the past therefore it must happen again like this' is a fallacy.
Harry Felker:Only the people not effected need be apathetic, and again history has shown us that this process works time and time again...
You purposely refuse to acknowledge that my 'ideal' consists of everyone. Meaning...everyone.
Harry Felker: I am not theorizing anything, I am noting that the unexpected can happen and I will have to adjust to such, just adding the wiseness in preparing for the unexpected...
In being prepared for the 'unexpect' you are in fact expecting it
Harry Felker: I understand that the war of ideas has a long way to go before we can hit the streets, we have a government with more power and a propaganda machine at their aid, and then there are the numbers issues.... I have no desire to form a cult of personality to defeat the current one, I find the notion hypocritical...
If the situation was intolerable then a cult of personality would at least be more tolerable would it not?
Harry Felker:It is not a case of degrees of freedom, when you have freedom you are just free, I believe you are talking about degrees of tyranny, much like when you have a society it is free or it is statist, the degrees are in statism, not in freedom...
Degrees of statism imply degrees of freedom.
Harry Felker:n a free society, as I see it, one is free to do immoral acts, take life for example, but the consequences of such an action will be that individual's to bear....
So we are free to kill people so long as we get our 'coming upings'? What happened to that whole responsibility tripe?
Juan:But your failed, monopolistic, government is ?
Well, it is really here is it not?
It is a poor option but realistic, I am looking for a better realistic option
quoting myself...:Would you grant monopoly status to the grocery owner ? What for ? And if you did, would you expect him to charge low prices ? But it gets even more absurd - would you grant monopoly status to a grocery owner that you know is an outright criminal
Harry:I am looking for a better realistic option
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