I ask this question because it came up on a libertarian/liberty orientated talk show that I occasionally listen. In the segment that the topic was brought up, the basic run up was that often non-freemarket individuals will state that the ideas of the freemarket (Austrian, non-Austrian, etc...) are idealistic and have no application in the real world. Or that such ideas are 'childish' and that "one will become pragmatic" over time with such values.
The funny thing is that I've seen this same line of reasoning in off/online discussions. It's as if the opposing viewpoint is hinged upon a presupposed superior footing in reality. Even though, I've often illustrated from empirical and/or logical examples as to why freemarket orientated ideas work. Yet, the persons holding the given opposite viewpoint simply shrug off the evidence, facts, and consistent arguments given. And I'm still called an idealist.
So, what do any of you think gives individuals the impression that freemarket ideas are idealistic (as in impractical or inapplicable to the real world)? Is it because they're counter intuitive, much like relativistic physics was for many decades? Or do you think it's more complex in the manner of social proof and indoctrination which drives the false memes against the freemarket and the ideas behind it?
"The power of liberty going forward is in decentralization. Not in leaders, but in decentralized activism. In a market process." -- liberty student
I get accused of it every day.
IMO its the indoctrination. They have been exposed there whole lives to flag waving, "free-market" rhetoric, "were the best" etc etc.
Then when the "insert radical here" comes along and says, well, this really isn't a free market,, or lincoln did not annex the south to free slavs, or drug prohibition not only fails to achieve its public goals but rather creates the negative externalities, its no different then saying the world is round, or christopher columbus wasn't the first to reach the United States, or the average black mans penis is 6.3 inches and not 10.
It's the preservation of Myth through indoctrination,
It's an easy dismissal. When someone can't argue with your logic, they can still dismiss your beliefs because they can never happen in the real world. Your beliefs are not irrational, IOW, but rather, YOU are irrational for clinging to them, because they can never become real. The problem with this is, sometimes ideals do become real (Marxism, for example). Personally, I think it's better to bet the dark horse if it's the horse you can live with.
I haven't been called an "idealist" in a long time. I've learned to listen, and not do so much talking as I did when I was young. People only listen, generally speaking, in the hopes of hearing something they already agree with, for the sense of security it gives them to be agreed with. Most are not looking to hear new ideas, or have their minds changed. I got tired, myself, of yelling at the wall.
The Rev
Lifes a piece of shit, when you look at it
Life's a laugh and death's a joke, it's true
Just remember it's all a show, keep em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you
loweleif:or the average black mans penis is 6.3 inches and not 10.
Inflation. It's hard on everyone.
I would've vastly preferred to be called an idealist than "anti-american", by my own family (sans my smartest younger sibling) in the last get together I had with them. The cold slap of Fascism from my own aged me a little bit, I think. Of course, if I could, I would revoke my citizenship to America & become a citizen of The Internet, being as The Internet seems to be the only place that is capable of representing me, thanks in part, obviously, to the free-market activity that occurs on it (for now, at least). I wouldn't have as much qualms as being a citizen of Comcast versus a citizen of the United States, despite both having more than questionable service records :DThe free-market is "idealistic" because of the following: Statist propaganda, limited perceived success of the free-market, few real world examples of the free-market that are *untouched* by counter-propaganda, etc.The parallel of the free-market to relativistic physics gave me some hope, though. I remember (historically; otherwise I would have to finally admit to being The Highlander...) when philosophy was preferred over physics for explaining things, and eventually that changed too.
WARNING: This signature violates Rule 5. Stay classy!
Nitroadict:The parallel of the free-market to relativistic physics gave me some hope, though. I remember (historically; otherwise I would have to finally admit to being The Highlander...) when philosophy was preferred over physics for explaining things, and eventually that changed too.
Yeah, that's why I used it, because in terms of the facts, it seems the basic ideas of Austrian Economics is being mirrored in other fields without direct attribution/reference such as neurology, information theory, and even biology. It's almost as if the bedrock of Austrian Economics and the freemarket are/were ahead of time in the long view of how things work. It's just too bad, it was too far ahead of time for most folks to grasp it. At least the sciences give the silent nod to its principles whether or not the scientists involve acknowledge it.
I am always the pessimist.
I am becoming a Burkean Whig.
- F.A. Hayek
The Rev:People only listen, generally speaking, in the hopes of hearing something they already agree with, for the sense of security it gives them to be agreed with. Most are not looking to hear new ideas, or have their minds changed. I got tired, myself, of yelling at the wall.
I agree with this 100%
actually changing minds is a rare event. I find that even in situations where people concede a point you'll hear them the next week espousing the same exact point you debunked. I don't think complex viewpoint changes are any more available to the average person than the stock market is to a chimpanzee.
Tanget... So then how do we reach anarchy/minarchy if we accept that education is ineffective?
Obviously we need set up von Mises Hitler Yugen camp for ze ung boyz und girlz to indoktrinate zem in za ways of fhree markets und liberty!
Leadership is much more effective than education. Education serves to train leaders.
Microsecession as a strategy for revolution | Challenge to minarchist | How would a private road system work?
ladyattis: I ask this question because it came up on a libertarian/liberty orientated talk show that I occasionally listen. In the segment that the topic was brought up, the basic run up was that often non-freemarket individuals will state that the ideas of the freemarket (Austrian, non-Austrian, etc...) are idealistic and have no application in the real world. Or that such ideas are 'childish' and that "one will become pragmatic" over time with such values. The funny thing is that I've seen this same line of reasoning in off/online discussions. It's as if the opposing viewpoint is hinged upon a presupposed superior footing in reality. Even though, I've often illustrated from empirical and/or logical examples as to why freemarket orientated ideas work. Yet, the persons holding the given opposite viewpoint simply shrug off the evidence, facts, and consistent arguments given. And I'm still called an idealist. So, what do any of you think gives individuals the impression that freemarket ideas are idealistic (as in impractical or inapplicable to the real world)? Is it because they're counter intuitive, much like relativistic physics was for many decades? Or do you think it's more complex in the manner of social proof and indoctrination which drives the false memes against the freemarket and the ideas behind it?
I think with conservatives or more right wing types, libertarianism has always been seen as unrealistic idealism. Now where things get very interesting to me is on the left where motives and labels seem to be a lot more fluid. For example, i really do think maybe 10 yrs ago the left tried to appeal to more people via populism and used elitism as a bad word, now it is just the opposite. But as far as calling libertarianism idealism it veries, and depends on what mood the left is in that day. Many times the left likes to see itself as bright eyed idealists and other times it likes to see itself as ironic, jaded, realistic and "science based".
The really odd thing is when you argue with socialists. Many times they start off pretending or thinking they are the idealists (think about it ,how many leftists and even some conservatives see socialism as a good kind of idealism in the mainstream as opposed to the word "capitalism"), until you point out their obvious logical flaws, they pin you as too idealistic. In a way they kind of remind me of Transformers.
I really don't think leftists are well prepared to deal with libertarianism, so they kind of work around it, ignore it, mock it, ostrasize it, or turn it into a cartoon. And because they control most msm culturaly and infowise,e they do a very good job at it. Conservatives on the other hand seem to relish in being consistantly pragmatic, and I think shun any form of thought that isn't the norm to them and tend to call it flakey or idealistic. At least you know what you're getting with the conservatives, the lefties though they truley are the joker in lifes deck.
Let us look then and see, how they manage their concerns- they for whose cause we are to labor, devote ourselves, and grow enthusiastic
-Max Stirner, The Ego and His Own
Yes. I had a friend say to me, word for word, "Get rid of government entirely? That's just...idealistic."
So be it. The human race has tried government and it's been a horrifying experiment.
Yes.
I get called idealist, and even worse some of my fellow christians think I'm a bit misguided by my fervor over libertarianism telling me that "Rothbard and Mises weren't messiahs". but to the first group who tell me I'm idealistic, I'm always careful to point out that there will still be problems, that unlike socialism, libertarianism doesn't put forward a utopia, but recognizes the problems man has and addresses them.
To my fellow Christians I make an analogy to the blessings of hand soap. That hand soap isn't a savior, but it is a good thing that is the difference between life & death in hospitals. that Economics is simply a science, and if it is followed, things will be better.
Everything you needed to know to be a libertarian you learned in Kindergarten. Keep your hands to yourself, and don't play with other people's toys without their consent.
I'll get called an anarchist (the decent one) or a contrarian. I have no problems with being called either. After the Miac report I am simply the guy with the militia. Again, I dont mind.
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