Juan:tradition of calling names and meaningless labels Oh, and by the way, my labels are pretty accurate. Of course people don't like to be reminded of what they are. Just like soldiers don't like to be reminded that they are self-serving murderers working for the state.
tradition of calling names and meaningless labels
So is Ron Paul a "murderous thug" and "evil collectivist" because he served in the Air Force?
If I hear not allowed much oftener; said Sam, I'm going to get angry.
J.R.R.Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
Natalie: Juan:Nope. You haven't yet learned that libertarianism is not 'left' nor 'right'. Here we go, making assumptions again.
Juan:Nope. You haven't yet learned that libertarianism is not 'left' nor 'right'.
Here we go, making assumptions again.
So libertarianism is about left and right?
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Juan:Nope. You haven't yet learned that libertarianism is not 'left' nor 'right'. By the way, people like Herbert Spencer surely were radicals
Strange, two days ago you asked me [ Laughing Man ] if I was a 'Left-Libertarian' or a Blockian clone? Apparently you haven't learned your own lesson.
Juan:People who support murder in the name of 'private property' (block clones) are not libertarians. On the other hand, people who usually self-identify as left-libertarians don't have such deranged views. And I thought you belonged to that last category. I was just using a conventional, but actually rather uncommon label. At any rate you are sidestepping my point. Right wingers and their love for the military and national defense are not libertarians.
If there are left-libertarians then that naturally assumes there are 'right' libertarians [ or else they would just be called libertarians ]
Juan:Well, the assumptions is wrong, go figure. It seems you didn't learn your lesson. Sorry.
So it is wrong to assume there are left and right libertarians?
Juan:Yes.
Ok what is 'unlibertarian' about Walter Block's writings?
1. They misunderstand the nature of libertarianism. These arguments implicitly assume that libertarianism is a moral philosophy, a guide to proper behavior, as it were. Should the flagpole hanger let go? Should the hiker go off and die? But libertarianism is a theory concerned with the justified use of aggression, or violence, based on property rights, not morality
Juan:What about his defense of 'voluntary' slavery for starters ?
Well to paraphrase Rothbard: The whole of libertarianism can be deduced through the NAP. While I disagree that slavery can be voluntary if it was then it does not violate the NAP.
Well to paraphrase Rothbard: The whole of libertarianism can be deduced through the NAP.
block:If the non-aggression axiom is the basic building block of libertarianism, private property rights based on (Lockean and Rothbardian) homesteading principles are the foundation.
While I disagree that slavery can be voluntary if it was then it does not violate the NAP.
Juan:Well, well. I'd daresay block disagrees with that. You see, the NAP, according to block at least, is defined in terms of private property, not the other way around.
Actually Block states that there are two coins to libertarianism.
The NAP and property rights.
Juan:The language is a bit obscure, but it seems he's saying that private property is a more basic concept than non-aggression.
It is establishing what is/isn't private property but it is not explicitly stating how that property is to be treated.
Juan:Not sure what you mean and how can slavery not violate the NAP.
Because it is voluntary. I did state that I don't think slavery can be voluntary but if it were to be then it would not violate NAP because it is welcomed.
What is aggravating is how anarchists try to pretend they are the only libertarians which is total nonsense. If you cannot accept that other types of libertarians exist you are an extremist. This is what happens with social conservatives who try to pretend fiscal conservatives and neo-conservatives don't exist. Libertarians all believe in personal liberty and economic freedom but can disagree on exactly how this achieved. I acknowledge anarchists have a right to their opinion but am constantly amazed when they refuse to acknowledge limited government Libertarians who support a constitutional republic and an all volunteer military for self-defense have a right to theirs'. So long as this nonsensical infighting continues you are not going to convince anyone. There are clearly left and right leaning Libertarians, I am a right leaning Libertarian.
Juan:So down with ron paul.
This sort of nonsense is where extremists who cannot rationalize their behavior have to go.
"Anarchism misunderstands the real nature of man. It would be practicable only in a world of angels and saints" - Ludwig von Mises
Oh, they have a right to believe and say whatever they want. But libertarianism is an ethical system deriving from the non-aggression principle, so it is impossible for someone to believe in state aggression and still be a libertarian. You can be "libertarian" on certain issues by supporting the removal of coercion from those issues. But that doesn't make a person a libertarian. If merely wanting less government than others made one a libertarian, the word would be as meaningless as "conservative" and "liberal". Words have meanings for a reason, so you'll just have to put with those of us who don't tolerate the corruption of those meanings.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
Poptech:What is aggravating is how anarchists try to pretend they are the only libertarians which is total nonsense. If you cannot accept that other types of libertarians exist you are an extremist. This is what happens with social conservatives who try to pretend fiscal conservatives and neo-conservatives don't exist. Libertarians all believe in personal liberty and economic freedom but can disagree on exactly how this achieved. I acknowledge anarchists have a right to their opinion but am constantly amazed when they refuse to acknowledge limited government Libertarians who support a constitutional republic and an all volunteer military for self-defense have a right to theirs'. So long as this nonsensical infighting continues you are not going to convince anyone. There are clearly left and right leaning Libertarians, I am a right leaning Libertarian.
The constitution is an insufficient device in combating the size of government when it alone interprets it.
I've looked up the definition of Libertarian.
"One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state." (American Heritage Dictionary)
"Advocate of individual responsibility: somebody who believes in the doctrine of free will. Advocate of individual freedom: somebody who believes in the principle that people should have complete freedom of thought and action." (Encarta)
"An advocate of the doctrine of free will. A person who upholds the principles of individual liberty especially of thought and action." (Merian-Websters)
They say nothing about anarchism. Which proves to me anarchists are attempting to hijack the definition. As for the difference with Conservatism, there is a huge difference.
"Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change." (American Heritage Dictionary)
"Reluctant to accept change: in favor of preserving the status quo and traditional values and customs, and against abrupt change." (Encarta)
"Tending or disposed to maintain existing views, conditions, or institutions. Marked by moderation or caution. Marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners." (Merian -Websters)
Making up your own meanings is propaganda.
The Anarchist00:The constitution is an insufficient device in combating the size of government when it alone interprets it.
I completely agree, it is clearly not perfect but that does not make me an anarchist.
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