Hezbollah

What do you think about Hezbollah? It seems to be a non-state entity that is making the state less relevant by the day, by providing many of the services of the state and much more competently the state is able to. Even the reppeling of an incursion of a foreign state which was supposed to be something that is really best left to your state. 

It doesn`t seem to have that great an appetite to wrest control of the Lebaneese state either, certainly not at all cost. But is it really fully a non-state entity or is it becoming a state in itself?

I'm quite fond of Hezbollah really.

hezbullah is fucking evil, they have no respect for life or property.

they are not anti-state, they want a caliphate, sounds like a state to me, an even nastier one than western social democracy.

i strongly recommend against supporting those guys

Marko:

It doesn`t seem to have that great an appetite to wrest control of the Lebaneese state either, certainly not at all cost. But is it really fully a non-state entity or is it becoming a state in itself?

More like becoming a state in itself, is how it seems to me.

nirgrahamUK:

hezbullah is fucking evil, they have no respect for life or property.

You know what ? Maybe their actions are just a non-proportional response to prior acts of trespassing. I imagine you agree that the jewish state has usurped lands that belonged to the palestinians ? Well, given that the jews now living there are trespassers, they can be legitimately shot...

...At least that's what you argued at length with regard to trespassing and self-defense in a previous thread... ? If I recall correctly ?

edit : I see that this Hezbollah thing is actually related to the lebanese. My argument doesn't change though. Jewish soldiers trespassed on lebanese property "Lebanon was twice invaded and occupied by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in 1978 and 1982, with the PLO expelled in the second invasion. Israel remained in control of Southern Lebanon until 2000, "

nirgrahamUK:

they are not anti-state, they want a caliphate, sounds like a state to me, an even nastier one than western social democracy.

 

Sounds like a state is not a very deep political theory. Caliphates are a very old, pre-state form of political organization.

From wikipedia

"Early forms of proto-capitalism and free markets were present in the Caliphate,^[56] where an early market economy and early form of merchant capitalism was developed between the 8th-12th centuries, which some refer to as "Islamic capitalism".^[57] A vigorous monetary economy was created on the basis of the expanding levels of circulation of a stable high-value currency (the dinar) and the integration of monetary areas that were previously independent. Innovative new business techniques and forms of business organisation were introduced by economists, merchants and traders during this time. Such innovations included early trading companies, credit cards, big businesses, contracts, bills of exchange, long-distance international trade, early forms of partnership (mufawada) such as limited partnerships (mudaraba), and early forms of credit, debt, profit, loss, capital (al-mal), capital accumulation (nama al-mal),^[58] circulating capital, capital expenditure, revenue, cheques, promissory notes,^[59] trusts (waqf), startup companies,^[60] savings accounts, transactional accounts, pawning, loaning, exchange rates, bankers, money changers, ledgers, deposits, assignments, the double-entry bookkeeping system,^[61] and lawsuits.^[62] Organizational enterprises similar to corporations independent from the state also existed in the medieval Islamic world.^[63][64] Many of these concepts were adopted and further advanced in medieval Europe from the 13th century onwards.^[58]"

Western Capitalism is rooted in the Caliphate.

Lets not forget the jizya, the tax on not being muslim. Real libertarian free-market stuff there.

nirgrahamUK:

hezbullah is fucking evil, they have no respect for life or property.

they are not anti-state, they want a caliphate, sounds like a state to me, an even nastier one than western social democracy.

i strongly recommend against supporting those guys

Caliphate? You do know they are Shia don`t you?

Juan:

You know what ? Maybe their actions are just a non-proportional response to prior acts of trespassing. I imagine you agree that the jewish state has usurped lands that belonged to the palestinians ? Well, given that the jews now living there are trespassers, they can be legitimately shot...

...At least that's what you argued at length with regard to trespassing and self-defense in a previous thread... ? If I recall correctly ?

edit : I see that this Hezbollah thing is actually related to the lebanese. My argument doesn't change though. Jewish soldiers trespassed on lebanese property "Lebanon was twice invaded and occupied by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) in 1978 and 1982, with the PLO expelled in the second invasion. Israel remained in control of Southern Lebanon until 2000, "

so, now your a collectivist that believes the israeli state, and ergo some set of individual jews have transgressed the private property of some subset of people that might be palestinian or lebanese, this somehow legitimates violent attacks on civilians, and makes honoroable to institute a system of law not derived from natural or common law but based on the dictates of a vengeful mean spirited demanding 'God'?

arguments about jewish soldiers trespassing on this and that can be offsett by arguments of arabs/muslims slaughtering jews in israel proper, and exiling them from persia and all sorts of other things. i think its a losing game to talk about the collective crimes of this and that socio ethnic tribe. we are methodological individualists arent we>?

Stranger:

Caliphates are a very old, pre-state form of political organization.

caliphates are pre-state? not islamic ones, there were plenty of states around before islam came around and mohammed went on a convert and butcher spree.

 

Stranger:

Western Capitalism is rooted in the Caliphate.

 

western capitlism is rooted in feudalism and all sorts of other nonsense, what kind of arguments are these>? do you look forward to living under a caliphate, under islamic law? (i.e. not natural or free market law?)

Marko:

Caliphate? You do know they are Shia don`t you?

whats your point ?

nirgrahamUK:

Marko:

Caliphate? You do know they are Shia don`t you?

whats your point ?

My point is you are going to have provide some sort of source for your claim that Hezbollah wants to reastablish the Caliphate as, based on what I know of them, it sounds outlandish.

NUK:

so, now your a collectivist that believes the israeli state, and ergo some set of individual jews have transgressed the private property of some subset of people that might be palestinian or lebanese, this somehow legitimates violent attacks on civilians,

Well, to begin with, the israeli 'nation' is a rather collectivistic nation which forces all its subjects into conscription/slavery -- if there's collectivism here, it's not wholly my fault is it ?

makes honoroable to institute a system of law not derived from natural or common law but based on the dictates of a vengeful mean spirited demanding 'God'?

I never said I support arab political/theocratic systems...

arguments about jewish soldiers trespassing on this and that can be offsett by arguments of arabs/muslims slaughtering jews in israel proper,

I don't see how. The jewish soldiers who invaded lebanon or palestine are outright criminals. The lebanese who killed jews in israel proper are outright criminals, too.

My main point was, though, that the jews who are now living in stolen land are trespassers and so can be killed in cold blood, just like children who wander in your lawn - if I didn't misunderstood your theories about trespassing ?

Also, since there's no such thing as proportionality in your system, maybe any sort of attack can be be more or less 'justified'... For instance any soldier who invaded a country is a trespasser and so is fair game. The soldiers who are ex-trespassers are still fair game unless they make some sort of restitution...which they never do, so a lot of people who may be civilians now can be killed anyway. Now, I do admit all this is rather nonsensical, but still more or less in line with your views about trespassing IMO.

On the other hand I agree that hezbollah is 'fucking evil'. And it can be classified as an statist organization/state too. I also think it's no more evil than the american or jewish state. Or the british =]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4314423.stm

Iran is their model country, they long to impose theocracy, but have found it politically expedient in recent years to tone down their rhetoric; playing down their divisions with other lebanese; and making hay over the common enemy of Usa, Israel, the West in general.

if you look on hizbollah's wiki page, sources 12,and 13. you will get your reference to their islamic orientation, one of those two articles states they are opposed to capitalism.

 

 

their Sheik Hassan Nasralla(from wiki)

On Salman Rushdie and the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy

• During the 2006 Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah declared in a speech aired on Al-ManarAl-Jazeera TV that: "If there had been a Muslim to carry out Imam Khomeini's fatwā against the renegade Salman Rushdie, this rabble who insult our Prophet Mohammed in Denmark, Norway and France would not have dared to do so. I am sure there are millions of Muslims who are ready to give their lives to defend our prophet's honour and we have to be ready to do anything for that." ^[47][48] TV and

Juan:

On the other hand I agree that hezbollah is 'fucking evil'. And it can be classified as an statist organization/state too. I also think it's no more evil than the american or jewish state. Or the british =]

well, then , what are we arguing about??

.. just for the sake of arguing....?!?!

 

p.s. i dont think you understand my views on self-defense; your application of them to the scenario is strawmanish, its probably irrelevant to others reading this thread. if you are interested to argue with me of issues of law and morality, and the NAP and private property in particular, and teach me the errors of my ways, perhaps a private conversation would be best, and i might be able to put my case better when im not having a 6way conversation. also i might take being lectured in private more kindly than an open air beating. be kind juan, be kind.

nirgrahamUK:

if you look on hizbollah's wiki page, sources 12,and 13. you will get your reference to their islamic orientation, one of those two articles states they are opposed to capitalism.

 

I know they are Islamists, they`ve got Allah right there in their name, so thats hardly a revelation. But you said they want to reastablish the Caliphate. Which is not true. Caliphate is really a Sunni thing and there is no mention of it in Khomeinism. Shia are hardly going to want to be drowned in a state of 1 billion Sunnis, particularly now that the Caliphate is a project of the Wahabis who maintain that the Shia are not Muslims at all.

_____________

Anyway AFAIK they don`t impose their norms on the rest of Lebaneese by force and they don`t seem to levy tax jet take on some roles which states normaly claim only they can provide, so it would be interesting to know more about how they pull it off as something like that is definetely a challange to the state. It`s probably a shame they have started to concentrate on electoral politics so much as that serves to reinforce the state.

Marko:

Anyway AFAIK they don`t impose their norms on the rest of Lebaneese by force and they don`t seem to levy tax jet take on some roles which states normaly claim only they can provide, so it would be interesting to know more about how they pull it off as something like that is definetely a challange to the state. It`s probably a shame they have started to concentrate on electoral politics so much as that serves to reinforce the state.

So they're engaging in electoral politics and they're attack civilians and we're supposed to think of them as allies? No frakking way. If they won an election, they'd have no scruples about becoming institutional agressors and at the current moment they do attack third parties who have not harmed them. The fact that they also provided services the State otherwise provides sans taxes does not make them worthy of support.  Otherwise libertarians would be endorsing rule by mafia.  Now its a good thing for those people that someone provides these services, but when they are doing it as part of a ploy to gain votes to become istutional agressors and when they engage in other forms of aggression against third parties who are innocent, that makes them a criminal pro-state organization, a mafia of sorts. Why it is arguable in some situations that Don Corleone may be a lesser evil, we should not become mafia-fanboys are support this lesser evil. 

Nerditarian:

Marko:

Anyway AFAIK they don`t impose their norms on the rest of Lebaneese by force and they don`t seem to levy tax jet take on some roles which states normaly claim only they can provide, so it would be interesting to know more about how they pull it off as something like that is definetely a challange to the state. It`s probably a shame they have started to concentrate on electoral politics so much as that serves to reinforce the state.

So they're engaging in electoral politics and they're attack civilians and we're supposed to think of them as allies? No frakking way. If they won an election, they'd have no scruples about becoming institutional agressors and at the current moment they do attack third parties who have not harmed them. The fact that they also provided services the State otherwise provides sans taxes does not make them worthy of support.  Otherwise libertarians would be endorsing rule by mafia.  Now its a good thing for those people that someone provides these services, but when they are doing it as part of a ploy to gain votes to become istutional agressors and when they engage in other forms of aggression against third parties who are innocent, that makes them a criminal pro-state organization, a mafia of sorts. Why it is arguable in some situations that Don Corleone may be a lesser evil, we should not become mafia-fanboys are support this lesser evil.

Who said anything about thinking of them as allies or supporting them? At the most I would say they are worth studying and depending on what is found perhaps be used as a model in those areas where they are not aggressors.

And I`m sure you`re a little dramatising here. First of all as far as I know the mafia does levy tax, in form of racketeering, so I don`t quite see the parallel. Secondly, it is more than a stretch to say that providing aid and services with the sole motivation of gaining favour with the population already makes you a criminal. A good deed is a good deed, regardless of the motivation behind it. Also why must Hezbollah`s motivation for providing these neccesarily be machievellian? Is it really out of the question that they may genuinely care about their constituents? They`ve started out as an anti-occupation movement and include priests with roots in the community in their ranks, I`m sure they provide aid and services out of concern as well as in order to gain favour. Furthermore, how does engaging in electoral politics autumaticaly makes them the devil`s spawn? Ron Paul engages in electoral politics, as did Frederic Bastiat, and Mises held a government post. Why must they neccesarily be motivated by the desire to become instutional agressors? Maybe they are driven by the desire to dismantle the Lebaneese sectarian quota system that keeps the Shia plurality severely disadvantaged?

Lastly I can`t help but think that while the moral indignation was to be expected and is not necessarily out of place there is little of a double standard at play here. Doubtlessly the USA has aggressed against as many induviduals as Hezbollah has, jet if I were to say that perhaps USA should be studied and aspects of its organisation used as a model in some other places (like North Korea) there wouldn`t be any of the indignation.

Frankly I don`t see that they are any more evil than the French Resistance, which also had its own ideas how to organise their post-war state, and aggressed against, what, about 10,000 executed by it without trial after the war?

Marko:

I know they are Islamists, they`ve got Allah right there in their name, so thats hardly a revelation. But you said they want to reastablish the Caliphate. Which is not true. Caliphate is really a Sunni thing and there is no mention of it in Khomeinism. Shia are hardly going to want to be drowned in a state of 1 billion Sunnis, particularly now that the Caliphate is a project of the Wahabis who maintain that the Shia are not Muslims at all.

i quote from caliphate.eu website

www.caliphate.eu:

Caliphate is a mainstream view

The aspiration of restoring the Caliphate is not a minority view held by extremists and terrorists as all Muslims believe in the idea of a Caliphate or Imamate as Shia refer to it although both are synonymous.

Marko:

Anyway AFAIK they don`t impose their norms on the rest of Lebaneese by force and they don`t seem to levy tax jet take on some roles which states normaly claim only they can provide, so it would be interesting to know more about how they pull it off as something like that is definetely a challange to the state. It`s probably a shame they have started to concentrate on electoral politics so much as that serves to reinforce the state.

of course the lebanese have fought and intrigued against other lebanese factions. if you mean that they havent entered a project of putting the whol country to the sword, this can be answered by 'not yet', 'too early'. Hitler could do a lot more after he was elected than before ot fuck up germans and jews, gypsies, homosexuals, you know this story.