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The carbon tax is coming, but will it work?

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Goldenboy219 posted on Thu, Dec 25 2008 7:50 PM

In Europe, the taxation of fuel keeps prices high, forcing auto manufacturers to market more efficient vehicles as well as laud public mass transit.  Currently, a gallon of gas in northern France is over $8 per gallon, while diesel is a tad bit less.  I believe nobody can deny the fact that such governmental constraints have forced efficiency in transportation. 

Yet alternative/renewable fuel is non existent in the minds of most Europeans.  In France, an argument can be made that nuclear energy is dominant, but that has much more to do with their governments insistence.  Of course, i am bringing this topic up because i am spending a month in Europe, and this is the main topic of discussion besides Obama. 

IMHO, conservation comes at the hands of higher prices of all goods.  Even the most conservative Euro's i encounter claim that a similar tax in the US will be feasible if it is transitioned slowly so to avoid demand pull inflation scenarios.

I am anxious to hear free market views on such measures.

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Verified by Goldenboy219

Goldenboy219:
Will it push the US to develop and build infrastructure for alternative forms of energy? 

No.  It has not had this effect in Europe, so there is no reason to believe it would happen in the U.S.

Goldenboy219:
What will be the impact on overall prices should such a tax be implemented?

Prices on fuel?  They would obviously go up.

Goldenboy219:
Will auto makers produce more fuel efficient autos? 

They would probably make smaller ones, like in Europe.  But why would we need to have them do that?  If there is plenty of fuel, than that just seems stupid to me.

At most, 5% of the population would need to stop complying to bring down the government.

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Kakugo replied on Sat, Dec 27 2008 12:31 PM

The problem with your argument is very simple: fuel in Europe has never been "cheap". High taxes were imposed at a time when nobody has ever heard the words "Global Warming" or "Carbon Neutral" and nobody even cared about emissions (the first european legislation regarding vehicle emissions was adopted in 1991). In some countries fuels are still saddled with duties imposed many years ago to pay for "national emergencies": for example Italy is still paying for a string of natural disasters which hit that Nation-State back in the '60s and '70s. When the government needed cash it just raised taxes on fuels... it was as easy as that! Last time it was to increase the pay of train and bus dirvers.

And another thing. Another piece of legislation which forced Europeans into small cars is the French invention of the "Fiscal Horsepower": it is pretty complicated actually and has nothing to do with fuel efficiency or overall power. The famous Citroen 2CV takes its name from the fact that it was designed as to pay as little in ownership taxes as possible since it only had 2 "fiscal" hp.

Finally look at the state of italian and English roads and tell you want to drive a Toyota Sequoia around there...

 Yes, it's time for the Dr Goebbels show!

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Kakugo:

The problem with your argument is very simple: fuel in Europe has never been "cheap". High taxes were imposed at a time when nobody has ever heard the words "Global Warming" or "Carbon Neutral" and nobody even cared about emissions (the first european legislation regarding vehicle emissions was adopted in 1991). In some countries fuels are still saddled with duties imposed many years ago to pay for "national emergencies": for example Italy is still paying for a string of natural disasters which hit that Nation-State back in the '60s and '70s. When the government needed cash it just raised taxes on fuels... it was as easy as that! Last time it was to increase the pay of train and bus dirvers.

And another thing. Another piece of legislation which forced Europeans into small cars is the French invention of the "Fiscal Horsepower": it is pretty complicated actually and has nothing to do with fuel efficiency or overall power. The famous Citroen 2CV takes its name from the fact that it was designed as to pay as little in ownership taxes as possible since it only had 2 "fiscal" hp.

Finally look at the state of italian and English roads and tell you want to drive a Toyota Sequoia around there...

Again, i am not arguing for any such thing.  Regardless of what the intent is, higher fuel costs have forced people to either pay more, or use either public transportation/ higher efficiency autos.  We already have a fuel tax, albiet a small one.  While i like where people have been going with their answers, nobody has yet talked about the economic ramifications of such a tax being implemented in the US. 

Will it push the US to develop and build infrastructure for alternative forms of energy? 

 

What will be the impact on overall prices should such a tax be implemented?

 

Will auto makers produce more fuel efficient autos? 

 

Regardless of how we feel about the upcomming stimulus, there is no denying that it will be in the $1 trillion range, an quite possibly exceed it.  In an attempt to pay for part of this, I also believe Obama will enact a carbon tax for two reasons.  The first as a way to generate even more tax revenue, and the second to protect the huge investment proposed for alternative energy investments.  Again I do not agree with these sort of actions, but we must accept the fact that it is an extremely possible scenario.  In that regard, identifiying the economic impact is vital to spread the awareness needed to combat the ideas of "big brother" being called upon at the current  enormous rate.  Couple this with opening up this can of worms, as many of you have described, where future generations will be at risk of behavior modification via taxation, so to appease the percieved problems of the times.

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Verified by Goldenboy219

Goldenboy219:
Will it push the US to develop and build infrastructure for alternative forms of energy? 

No.  It has not had this effect in Europe, so there is no reason to believe it would happen in the U.S.

Goldenboy219:
What will be the impact on overall prices should such a tax be implemented?

Prices on fuel?  They would obviously go up.

Goldenboy219:
Will auto makers produce more fuel efficient autos? 

They would probably make smaller ones, like in Europe.  But why would we need to have them do that?  If there is plenty of fuel, than that just seems stupid to me.

At most, 5% of the population would need to stop complying to bring down the government.

  • | Post Points: 5
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