ryanpatgray: rechelon: There's an entire anarchist nieghborhood/zone in Athens that's actually named -- get this -- Ex-Archia, where the cops are pretty much outlawed. Anarchists militants are constantly arrested, sent to jail, whereupon the jails are promptly attacked and the militants set free. Perhaps we in North America should try to set up such a zone. It could be interesting. And I wonder how our thugs would react if their precious jails were attacked after they threw non-criminals in cages.
rechelon: There's an entire anarchist nieghborhood/zone in Athens that's actually named -- get this -- Ex-Archia, where the cops are pretty much outlawed. Anarchists militants are constantly arrested, sent to jail, whereupon the jails are promptly attacked and the militants set free.
There's an entire anarchist nieghborhood/zone in Athens that's actually named -- get this -- Ex-Archia, where the cops are pretty much outlawed. Anarchists militants are constantly arrested, sent to jail, whereupon the jails are promptly attacked and the militants set free.
Perhaps we in North America should try to set up such a zone. It could be interesting. And I wonder how our thugs would react if their precious jails were attacked after they threw non-criminals in cages.
Definitely something we should aim for in the next 4 to 8 years.
ryanpatgray: Nitroadict:There's a difference between viewing violence as possible, & viewing it as inevitable. I don't care if your a perpendicular libertarian, if you think violence is justified beyond a self-defense basis (which also means not going on the offensive once "first blood" was drawn by The State, as I'm sure some would love to rationalize that), you are not libertarian. I would agree that it is not, at the time of this post, justified to out and out attack the police - at least not on the Florida Peninsula. However, if we become a 21st century version of NAZI Germany I would view every storm trooper as initiating violence against me by virtue of wearing that uniform. Do you understand?
Nitroadict:There's a difference between viewing violence as possible, & viewing it as inevitable. I don't care if your a perpendicular libertarian, if you think violence is justified beyond a self-defense basis (which also means not going on the offensive once "first blood" was drawn by The State, as I'm sure some would love to rationalize that), you are not libertarian.
Thats way I see it, violence is only justified when a government becomes an absolute despot territory, but even then extreme aggresion should not be seen as something romantic.
Nick. B:From what I've heard the state immediatly aressted the two officers, so I don't know why there was reason for riots, and Liberty student you do indeed have a point the minute we become desesitized to violence is the minute we no longer have our humanity. Violence should always be the absolute last resort!
This sort of thing excites guys who've never handled a real weapon, or had a gun pointed at them. It's an extension of the TV/Movie/3rd person shooter desensitization of our young men.
The cheering on of violence is strictly for sexually frustrated males. It's the meathead, beer and pot mentality of watching bloodsport PPV in one's parent's basement.
It does nothing for us from an ideological marketing perspective. It's not going to change the state, if anything, it will make the state get more brutal and unjust.
It also shows that we don't actually believe our own rhetoric of a civilized and voluntary society being better than life under the state.
Sad to see enthusiasm for confrontation, because that enthusiasm is definitely missing when it comes to establishing post-state institutions.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
I read about this in the paper this evening. Not very impressive. They seem to be detroying both government property and private property. They seem to be little more than an mindless, angry mob. What did the shopkeepers ever do to them, or the bankers, or any of the other businesses?
Spence: You ever kill anybody?
Sam: I hurt somebody's feelings once.
Indeed Stephen.
liberty student: Nick. B:From what I've heard the state immediatly aressted the two officers, so I don't know why there was reason for riots, and Liberty student you do indeed have a point the minute we become desesitized to violence is the minute we no longer have our humanity. Violence should always be the absolute last resort! This sort of thing excites guys who've never handled a real weapon, or had a gun pointed at them. It's an extension of the TV/Movie/3rd person shooter desensitization of our young men. The cheering on of violence is strictly for sexually frustrated males. It's the meathead, beer and pot mentality of watching bloodsport PPV in one's parent's basement. It does nothing for us from an ideological marketing perspective. It's not going to change the state, if anything, it will make the state get more brutal and unjust. It also shows that we don't actually believe our own rhetoric of a civilized and voluntary society being better than life under the state. Sad to see enthusiasm for confrontation, because that enthusiasm is definitely missing when it comes to establishing post-state institutions.
Well I hope you don't think I'm like those brutes. The only time violence should even cross anybody's mind is when its in self defense or to take down a TRULY oppressive government (Nazi Germany or North Korea). Otherwise we should indefinitely stick to non-violent means.
Nick. B:Well I hope you don't think I'm like those brutes.
I don't. You're a better person than that. Unfortunately, I'm not too impressed by some of the posts on the left-libertarian forums.
liberty student: Nick. B:Well I hope you don't think I'm like those brutes. I don't. You're a better person than that. Unfortunately, I'm not too impressed by some of the posts on the left-libertarian forums.
The real sad thing is that they honestly believe that they're making things better. One day these young people are going to grow up and look into a mirror, and when they do they'll realise they have become the very thing they hated and fought so hard against, its especially sad knowing that they've probably promised themselves that they'd never turn into the enemy.
Which is why I asked why are they protesting, and against whom. If it's just misdirected whining, as opposed to clearly focused opposition to government shenanigans, it's pointless.
To darkness I condemn you...
What are those idiot on the Libertarian Left Forum talking about! This is just a bunch of kids breaking stuff and they act as if they're "taking the fight to the state". The fact is even if they could bring the Greek government down the E.U, UN, or U.S.A would intervene almost immediately and shut them down! What are those guys smoking on that forum?!
I can't even begin to comprehend the stupidity of this. That's what gives anarchist theories a bad name.
And since when individualists give in to nationalist-like violence? As far as I can see, there is no attainable goal in this. Raising an ad-hoc army and destroying everything in your way certainly isn't ethical or even rational. Compare this to agorism and see how senseless and immature it is.
liberty student:I don't. You're a better person than that. Unfortunately, I'm not too impressed by some of the posts on the left-libertarian forums.
Don't generalize too much. Its pretty much just Tremblay who is enthuisiastic about it.
Market anarchist, Linux geek, aspiring Perl hacker, and student of the neo-Aristotelians, the classical individualist anarchists, and the Austrian school.
I said posts, not members.
Nitroadict:I see more in common with the USSR than Nazi Germany, honestly. Even in your hypothetical, I see no rationale for going on the counter-offensive, unless it is done on a self-defense, case-by-case basis, individual by individual (i.e. not war). I don't care how dire you think the situation is, you do not want war, nobody does.
I do not want war but if we have a 21st Century USSR or NAZI Germany it is they who will be starting the war - not me.
I am an eklektarchist not an anarchist.
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Nick. B: Thats way I see it, violence is only justified when a government becomes an absolute despot territory, but even then extreme aggresion should not be seen as something romantic.
I agree violence should not be seen as romantic.
Jon Irenicus: I read about this in the paper this evening. Not very impressive. They seem to be detroying both government property and private property. They seem to be little more than an mindless, angry mob. What did the shopkeepers ever do to them, or the bankers, or any of the other businesses? Which is why I asked why are they protesting, and against whom. If it's just misdirected whining, as opposed to clearly focused opposition to government shenanigans, it's pointless.
That is one thing that bothers me about some so-called-anarchists who riot. Some of them (the ones who are NOT anarchists but simply confused Marxists) attack private property as well as government property. Shopkeepers are potential allies. Bankers are potential allies. Attack them and they will side with the government.
ryanpatgray: Nitroadict:I see more in common with the USSR than Nazi Germany, honestly. Even in your hypothetical, I see no rationale for going on the counter-offensive, unless it is done on a self-defense, case-by-case basis, individual by individual (i.e. not war). I don't care how dire you think the situation is, you do not want war, nobody does. I do not want war but if we have a 21st Century USSR or NAZI Germany it is they who will be starting the war - not me.
Rationalize all you want, but even if you or others see it as self-defense (it seems you are more or less saying "the moment they start an all out war,all bets are off", or the first blood defense), you will help perpetuate that war by particpating in it. The truth is not nice & neat, though, I can admit that.
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liberty student: Nick. B:From what I've heard the state immediatly aressted the two officers, so I don't know why there was reason for riots, and Liberty student you do indeed have a point the minute we become desesitized to violence is the minute we no longer have our humanity. Violence should always be the absolute last resort! This sort of thing excites guys who've never handled a real weapon, or had a gun pointed at them. It's an extension of the TV/Movie/3rd person shooter desensitization of our young men. The cheering on of violence is strictly for sexually frustrated males. It's the meathead, beer and pot mentality of watching bloodsport PPV in one's parent's basement.
:-) !!! So true. The Queens of the Stone Age said it best. (btw, there goes my credibility for the rest of my posting life).
However, when it comes to war I am an incredibly weak individual. It's not that I'm such a man of principal that causes me to say that I would never use violence. The fact is, if I go to war with anyone then I will eventually get shot and die. The only problem is that before I get shot and die, I will have sacrificed one of the only things that lets me believe that I was ever righteous in the first place. Also, why validate the state's belief that they have the right to take my life? Honestly, if it ever comes to the "21st Century Nazi" cliche, I would either move or take my own life. I forget who said this, but "It's dangerous to be right when everyone else is wrong." I usually rephrase it to read, "It's pointless to be right when everyone else is wrong." It's not my job to "save" the world from police states. If society gives me nothing (because I believe in self-reliance), then why should I give my life for them -- and giving my life is the ultimate result for war. Furthermore, what good is having a life if it's spent in paranoia, violence, and bondage?
To hell with martyrdom.
Side Note: The funny thing about the internet is that once you post something, it's there forever. It's awfully hard to change your mind or even just explain that you got emotional and irrationally excited for such an event. Let's remember that we are all anarcho-capitalists and that unless someone continues to spew hate & violence, it was probably just a moment of weakness.
Nitroadict:Rationalize all you want, but even if you or others see it as self-defense (it seems you are more or less saying "the moment they start an all out war,all bets are off", or the first blood defense), you will help perpetuate that war by particpating in it. The truth is not nice & neat, though, I can admit that.
Back when I was studying at the university there was a strong Greek community there; I even shared my dorm with some of them at a time so I learnt a little about them and their country. What can I say? This "outburst" was just waiting to happen.
The country is pretty much bankrupt, ruined by poor (by any standards) economic choices and irresponsible (again by any standard) government spending. The still-ongoing armament race with Turkey and the 2004 Olympics are perceived by many as the final nails in the coffin. Young people have few choices: Athens is not London or Berlin, finding a job is not so easy. The brightest and the better educated either flee the country or have to line up after the "recommended" to get a decent job: not everybody wants to spend the rest of his life working in a kiosk, living on welfare or selling souvenirs in the Plakas. Ever since the Euro was introduced prices have soared while salaries have increased little; trying to appease the Euro-nutters in Bruxelles by force is draining the country of the precious little energies it has left.
In such conditions it's natural to expect that somebody will get so desperate and angry as to riot. It pretty much the same situation France has in her banlieus : desperation, hopelessness, misery... the State is able to keep things (barely) under control by using an admixture of strength and promises but when an extraordinary event happens the bomb will explode. Of course being very localized events it is easy for the State-run medias to blame everything on "vandals", "anarchists" etc, it's easy to scare the rest of the population into thinking that the protestors should be dealt with quickly and brutally since they are the "bad guys". Divide et impera: has something changed?
Yes, it's time for the Dr Goebbels show!
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