We've discussed abortion at great lengths. This is a new scenario.
A woman, know to carry a genetic disorder that will give her a 50/50 chance of having a child that is severly physically disabled gets pregnant. The doctors tell her, during the first trimester that her child is affected by the genetic disorder and will be disabled. Regardless of the doctors' recommendation, the woman has the child. In addition to the physical disability, the child is also mentally disabled.
I have been debating this in my mind for four days now as I have encountered such a case this past weekend. Is it fair to the child to bring it into this world full well knowing that it will be disabled?
On the one hand, I can understand the mother wanting to have the child, on the other hand, shouldn't the life of the child be considered as well and how it will be able to function in society?
What are your thoughts on this?
Sometimes "majority" simply means that all the fools are on the same side
katja328:What are your thoughts on this?
Would you walk up to a disabled person and shoot them?
Eugenics
I don't think you understood me correctly. And this has nothing to do with Eugenics but with the question whether it is fair towards the child to having to live a life where it is unable to function properly. I am talking about not being able to communicate, not being able to walk, etc.
I understood. I'm asking you to apply this question to an adult. Is it fair to not end the life of an individual " not being able to communicate, not being able to walk, etc.?"
katja328:And this has nothing to do with Eugenics
Killing the inferior is eugenics. You may be trying to justify it on different grounds, but it is still eugenics.
The selfish and cruel act was the woman becoming pregnant in the first place. Based on that irresponsibility, no action that follows can really be called good. That being said, this utter unfortunate dependent is now her responsibility, and she shouldn't murder it.
katja328:I don't think you understood me correctly. And this has nothing to do with Eugenics but with the question whether it is fair towards the child to having to live a life where it is unable to function properly. I am talking about not being able to communicate, not being able to walk, etc.
Define "fair" and explain the reason we should be "fair."
katja328: whether it is fair towards the child to having to live a life where it is unable to function properly. I am talking about not being able to communicate, not being able to walk, etc.
whether it is fair towards the child to having to live a life where it is unable to function properly. I am talking about not being able to communicate, not being able to walk, etc.
katja328:On the one hand, I can understand the mother wanting to have the child, on the other hand, shouldn't the life of the child be considered as well and how it will be able to function in society? What are your thoughts on this?
That it's not your business.
Should I have not been born because my mother knew I'd inherit eyes that will continually deteriorate? Should people who know about mental illness running in their family not have children? Or what about having one of those diseases that will kill you in your 40's, or being born with one leg and 3 fingers?
When drawing such lines you are only putting up arbitrary boundaries.
I have a feeling that all the answers on this question have come from men, and most of which have never had children. I doubt if any of you have any mentally or physically challenge siblings either, but I can only assume by the answers here the latter may be true. I am a mother and also have a mentally challenged younger sister, who by the way holds down a full time position at a fast food restaurant. She is a very happy individual with wonderful insights and the best heart I have ever witnessed. To judge what someone else’s quality of life should or should not be decided by your finite experience is colossally wrong. However, for the sake of mental masturbation that seems to be the highlight of most intellectuals, I will weigh in on this post. The woman has every right to give birth to an alien, reptile, mock-intellectual or a green donkey if she is capable of doing so, it is her life and her body. She also has the right not to give birth, before or after conception. (no matter what we think of her decision) The child (after delivery) has a right to have the same opportunity to do the best that he/she is capable of doing with the aptitudes and abilities that he/she may bring with them into this existence - just as much as the rest of us. No matter what other’s may think, unless either of them infringe on our ability to pursue our liberty, we have no say. If she decides to try and take our earnings from our labor to support her decisions then we have a right to say “no” other than that it is none of our business. I would hope that if I saw anyone struggling in life that I would show compassion and feel the need to help in any way I could. (whether they be “normal” or otherwise)
I have a feeling that all the answers on this question have come from men, and most of which have never had children. I doubt if any of you have any mentally or physically challenge siblings either, but I can only assume by the answers here the latter may be true. I am a mother and also have a mentally challenged younger sister, who by the way holds down a full time position at a fast food restaurant. She is a very happy individual with wonderful insights and the best heart I have ever witnessed.
To judge what someone else’s quality of life should or should not be decided by your finite experience is colossally wrong. However, for the sake of mental masturbation that seems to be the highlight of most intellectuals, I will weigh in on this post.
The woman has every right to give birth to an alien, reptile, mock-intellectual or a green donkey if she is capable of doing so, it is her life and her body. She also has the right not to give birth, before or after conception. (no matter what we think of her decision) The child (after delivery) has a right to have the same opportunity to do the best that he/she is capable of doing with the aptitudes and abilities that he/she may bring with them into this existence - just as much as the rest of us. No matter what other’s may think, unless either of them infringe on our ability to pursue our liberty, we have no say. If she decides to try and take our earnings from our labor to support her decisions then we have a right to say “no” other than that it is none of our business. I would hope that if I saw anyone struggling in life that I would show compassion and feel the need to help in any way I could. (whether they be “normal” or otherwise)
Daimona: I have a feeling that all the answers on this question have come from men, and most of which have never had children. I doubt if any of you have any mentally or physically challenge siblings either, but I can only assume by the answers here the latter may be true. I am a mother and also have a mentally challenged younger sister, who by the way holds down a full time position at a fast food restaurant. She is a very happy individual with wonderful insights and the best heart I have ever witnessed. To judge what someone else’s quality of life should or should not be decided by your finite experience is colossally wrong. However, for the sake of mental masturbation that seems to be the highlight of most intellectuals, I will weigh in on this post. The woman has every right to give birth to an alien, reptile, mock-intellectual or a green donkey if she is capable of doing so, it is her life and her body. She also has the right not to give birth, before or after conception. (no matter what we think of her decision) The child (after delivery) has a right to have the same opportunity to do the best that he/she is capable of doing with the aptitudes and abilities that he/she may bring with them into this existence - just as much as the rest of us. No matter what other’s may think, unless either of them infringe on our ability to pursue our liberty, we have no say. If she decides to try and take our earnings from our labor to support her decisions then we have a right to say “no” other than that it is none of our business. I would hope that if I saw anyone struggling in life that I would show compassion and feel the need to help in any way I could. (whether they be “normal” or otherwise)
Thank you, this is more along the lines I was hoping the discussion would go.
Wow, I found what you wrote very interesting Diamona. Are there any articles you would recommend to read on this subject?
http://irishliberty.wordpress.com/
Daimona:I have a feeling that all the answers on this question have come from men, and most of which have never had children.
Y'know, I don't have to have been a meth addict to know that being a meth addict is generally a bad thing. Being an observer and evaluator with some detachment from the situation makes your views on it more, not less valid, if it has any effect at all.
Daimona:I doubt if any of you have any mentally or physically challenge siblings either, but I can only assume by the answers here the latter may be true. I am a mother and also have a mentally challenged younger sister, who by the way holds down a full time position at a fast food restaurant. She is a very happy individual with wonderful insights and the best heart I have ever witnessed.
OK. Was she able to get that job all by herself? Does she exist totally independently? What would have happened to her if her family had not helped her (though it is nice to know they fulfilled their OBLIGATIONS).
Daimona:The woman has every right to give birth to an alien, reptile, mock-intellectual or a green donkey if she is capable of doing so, it is her life and her body.
I would tend to think that the life and body of the alien, reptile, mock-intellectual or a green donkey should also be taken into consideration. I know you abortion-lovers just hate to consider these issues in any but the most self-serving manner, though...
Daimona:She also has the right not to give birth, before or after conception.
What, is she going to hold it? Oh, you mean murder, right. My bad.
Daimona:No matter what other’s may think, unless either of them infringe on our ability to pursue our liberty, we have no say. If she decides to try and take our earnings from our labor to support her decisions then we have a right to say “no” other than that it is none of our business. I would hope that if I saw anyone struggling in life that I would show compassion and feel the need to help in any way I could. (whether they be “normal” or otherwise)
Indeed! That is why I'm totally against anyone not already involved in the situation stepping in to stop a murder, robbery, or rape. Not your business. Right?
katja328:Thank you, this is more along the lines I was hoping the discussion would go.
So, you were hoping you could just talk about how you agree with each other. Not the best forum for that, I'm afraid.
Daimona: I have a feeling that all the answers on this question have come from men, and most of which have never had children. I doubt if any of you have any mentally or physically challenge siblings either, but I can only assume by the answers here the latter may be true. I am a mother and also have a mentally challenged younger sister, who by the way holds down a full time position at a fast food restaurant. She is a very happy individual with wonderful insights and the best heart I have ever witnessed.
So you are saying that since you are a mother and you have a mentally challenged sibling, then your opinions are somehow more valid than everyone else's?
katja328: We've discussed abortion at great lengths. This is a new scenario. A woman, know to carry a genetic disorder that will give her a 50/50 chance of having a child that is severly physically disabled gets pregnant. The doctors tell her, during the first trimester that her child is affected by the genetic disorder and will be disabled. Regardless of the doctors' recommendation, the woman has the child. In addition to the physical disability, the child is also mentally disabled. I have been debating this in my mind for four days now as I have encountered such a case this past weekend. Is it fair to the child to bring it into this world full well knowing that it will be disabled? On the one hand, I can understand the mother wanting to have the child, on the other hand, shouldn't the life of the child be considered as well and how it will be able to function in society? What are your thoughts on this?
Nature is unfortunately not always fair, but I don't see how not giving a child the chance to live would make it more fair for him/her.
No, but I don't consider the previous answers a discussion but merely an attack on my question. I don't think I have stated my preference of what I would do as the mother of the child but merely pointed out a dilemma that I found of interest to discuss.
CorporateGhost: So you are saying that since you are a mother and you have a mentally challenged sibling, then your opinions are somehow more valid than everyone else's?
I don't think she said she was an expert. I do think though women generally tend to look at issues like that in a bit of a different way.
Neither one of us said they would support an abortion of a mentally/physically disabled child.
There doesn't seem to be anything new to this scenario from a natural rights point-of-view. From what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), Rothbard in Ethics of Liberty proposes that a woman can abort her child because to force her to keep it would be a violation of her property rights (to her own body). Whether the child has an IQ of 30 or of 300 doesn't change anything.
You could of course use non-violent means to influence her decision one way or the other. The question of whether it's moral of her to abort is up to everyone's own judgment, but the question of legality is as above if you adopt Rothbard's natural law approach.
The woman's body is under shared ownership with the unborn until its birth. To expel it would be to violate its rights. This is besides the fact that we are responsible to provide for the dependencies our neglectful/aggressive actions create in others.
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