I don't get it. Why do people thing that capitalism is somehow equivelent to slavery/satism?
Schools are labour camps.
1. What is satism?
2. Some people think that selling your labor is like slavery.
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supposedly the fact of choice is itself enslaving because it limits the powers of man. So for instance, if a poor guy has to choose between starving and working to get food, the very choice and its unpleasantness is counted as equal to the slavemaster's whip and the capitalist is the slavemaster. It seems that the people won't be satisfied that slavery is gone until they shackle human nature itself all the while proposing for the state to enslave as a means to this end! What this freedom=enslavement argument misses is that it can be easily applied to everyone who has to make a potentially upsetting choice and so there is no way that even they can escape from being slavemasters, in my opinion.
Because they've been brainwashed by the collectivist tosswads who appeal to jealousy.
I also don't know what satism is.
For the second part, I would say it is because some people think the evil greedy capitalist "forces" people to work for him and don't realize that these people work for him out of their free will.
Because the status quo IS slavery/statism, and what people generally mean by capitalism is "the status quo". The problem is that they dont generally have a comprehensive understanding of what specifically causes the status quo to be how it is, and hence their anti-capitalism often reduces to a confused hodge-podge of correct and incorrect positions in which they at least partially support some of the causes of the very problems that they are so concerned with and hence fail to see the role of the state in the matter.
yup, like connecting the outrage over the big 3's private jet excursion to DC to class warfare.
What do you think most people think whenever there's negative coverage on the big 3's CEO's behavior? What do they think the criticism about, exactly? What principle is being scathed?
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Knight_of_BAAWA: Because they've been brainwashed by the collectivist tosswads who appeal to jealousy.
I think there is more to it than that. Usually the "collectivist tosswads" are people who have a Liberal Arts degree of the variety where the state will have to pay for their (often unimpressive) income but for a relatively easy job. Their real job experience once they get their Gender Studies degree will be next to nothing and if they did have job while getting their degree it (would have been cashier or food service jobs.
So they look at people without degrees and state sponsorship and say "that sucks"...which anyone can tell you who has had one of those jobs is that it does indeed "suck" but it is a better alternative than having no job at all.
So here are these people who briefly experienced the low rungs of employment that we all must go through to gain a decent work history and hopefully better employment and they too were annoyed at the low pay, petty middle managment and other problems that arise from having that kind of work...and then they get job on some committee or organisation and that world is frozen to them...but they think they have experienced the life of the working class. Eventually they work their way up in the world of state employment to where some of them have power to set policy. People like them in the media have power to create opinion and news. Think Tanks and state Universities do studies and determine that low paid workers are unhappy (I could have told them that for the price of a cheeseburger in 1987) and that worker have no choice but to have a low paying job. To them, no choice is slavery. Plus they have the added benifit of creating more job security for themselves while placing regulations on employers.
On a weird note. Over 20 years ago I was on probation due to the fact I was caught in a petty crime (I stole Mountain Dew and Pepsi with some friends of mine so we could have a cheap source of caffeine for mid-terms). Part of that probation deal was that I had to be employed during the summer or spend the summer in jail. The only job available in the recession prone midwest was in a factory that paid $3.70 an hour and I hated the job, my co-workers, my bosses and everything about it like poison. But if I would have quit I would have gone to jail until classes started again. So I was essentially forced by the state to work at a job I hated or else I would have quit on my second day. (I also have not stolen anything in 22 years in case anyone cares).
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Twirlcan:Over 20 years ago I was on probation due to the fact I was caught in a petty crime (I stole Mountain Dew and Pepsi with some friends of mine so we could have a cheap source of caffeine for mid-terms). Part of that probation deal was that I had to be employed during the summer or spend the summer in jail. The only job available in the recession prone midwest was in a factory that paid $3.70 an hour and I hated the job, my co-workers, my bosses and everything about it like poison.
OMG, so it was either work at crappy job or get forced into jail for stealing some soda? The irony is that the punisher is the criminal.
Because bored college kids will believe anything.
eliotn: OMG, so it was either work at crappy job or get forced into jail for stealing some soda? The irony is that the punisher is the criminal.
To be fair it was more than just "some soda". It was 68 cases. I paid my share of the restitution to the owner and years later he and I became friends (small town). He said he only wanted to report the theft for insurance reasons and if he had known about the jail time and the long probations we got he would have never bothered. It was more the fact that my victim was a nice guy that "reformed" me than the legal system (not much reforming needed to be done anyway).
Twirlcan:To be fair it was more than just "some soda". It was 68 cases. I paid my share of the restitution to the owner and years later he and I became friends (small town). He said he only wanted to report the theft for insurance reasons and if he had known about the jail time and the long probations we got he would have never bothered. It was more the fact that my victim was a nice guy that "reformed" me than the legal system (not much reforming needed to be done anyway).
Well, that reminds me of a Chineese parable. A theif walked into a monk's house and demanded his money, or his life. The monk told him, without hesitation, where the money was, but told him to leave some that he would need to pay his taxes with. Effectively, he was giving his money to the theif. He requested some thanks, which the theif did, then the theif left the house. Later, he was caught and punished for his crimes (he stole from more than one house). The monk forgave him of stealing from his house, as it was a gift. After he served out his punishment for the other crimes, the former thief became the monk's disciple.
But still, it always seems like the current system uses a criminal's crimes as an excuse to commit crimes.
Just look at any fiction TV show to see how present society sees capitalism. The Simpsons is a perfect case: capitalists are always out there to destroy the world just because they are evil. Why this happened? It's hard to say but it goes back a long way. I won't delve into religious matters because I don't want to hurt people's feelings, but look back at the last three hundred years. Profit is bad, employing (willing) labor is bad, private property is bad, saving is bad... there is a subtle irony in the fact that today most of the enemies of economic freedom and capitalism are in fact "wealthy" people while the last defenders are the ones who a century ago would have been called "proletarians": small shopowners, non-union workers and students, craftsmen etc. When I read about some big banker or immensely rich CEO talking about the evil of profits or how people should "share" the wealth I cannot but help smiling by thinking what Marx or Lenin would say if they came back to life right now.
Yes, it's time for the Dr Goebbels show!
Well considering that neither of them were proles either...
To darkness I condemn you...
Kakugo:The Simpsons is a perfect case: capitalists are always out there to destroy the world just because they are evil.
And yet the evil capitalists are the only people who would employ a dangerous and retarded incompetent like Homer, for a premium wage that allows Marge to perpetually raise their baby that never grows up.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Marge sounds like the state.
Two reasons:
1. People can immediately see those that benefit from for force and can not see those hurt by it.
2. People want to keep their power and position and know that the ever changing capitalism will eventually pass them by so they will risk their very lives trying to stop it.
eliotn: I don't get it. Why do people thing that capitalism is somehow equivelent to slavery/satism?
BP already touched on this, but it is because "capitalism" means the currently-existing system (corporatism with a mild flavoring of state-socialism) to most people. And as far as that goes, they are right.
Market anarchist, Linux geek, aspiring Perl hacker, and student of the neo-Aristotelians, the classical individualist anarchists, and the Austrian school.
wombatron: eliotn: I don't get it. Why do people thing that capitalism is somehow equivelent to slavery/satism? BP already touched on this, but it is because "capitalism" means the currently-existing system (corporatism with a mild flavoring of state-socialism) to most people. And as far as that goes, they are right.
Actually, it means that because people perpetuate it, and libertarians are too busy slashing their own throats and attacking one another (see Carson's Misoids) to stand up for anything, particularly their own vernacular.
Basically, libertarians are horrible at sacrificing for future goals and promoting their ideas. So much so, idiots like "anti-capitalists" can crop up in our midst and be revered as heroes, when they are undermining our very foundations.
liberty student:Actually, it means that because people perpetuate it, and libertarians are too busy slashing their own throats and attacking one another (see Carson's Misoids) to stand up for anything, particularly their own vernacular.
Misoid, leftard, Randroid, vulgartarian, Marxist, vandarchist, cosmotard, leftoid, etc. It goes both ways. Besides, we're descended from the left; we can't help attacking each other
liberty student:Basically, libertarians are horrible at sacrificing for future goals and promoting their ideas. So much so, idiots like "anti-capitalists" can crop up in our midst and be revered as heroes, when they are undermining our very foundations.
Carson, in particlular, has been very careful in explaining that by "capitalism", he means the historical system of plutocracy and state privelege that continues today. That is what he means by "anti-capitalism"; nothing more, and nothing less. He definitely doesn't mean that he is opposed to the "free exchange of goods of services". By that definition, he is a capitalist. He has gone out of his way to say that he has little argument with many anarcho-capitalists, as long as they are careful to define what they mean by "capitalism". Many aren't. Hence, vulgar libertarianism and this entire debate.
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