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In Anarchy...

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Zach Posted: Tue, Nov 25 2008 10:04 PM

What's stopping the private militias from seizing power? I've been entertaining the idea of no government as I start to get into Austrian Literature (recommended by you all!). Also, what's stopping the militias from bickering/being destroyed by a larger, more centralized foreign force?

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Must. contain. fist. of. death.

Seriously: what prevents McDonalds from destroying Burger King? What stops governments now from all-out war on every other government?

Answer: people are more rational than you might think.

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Zach replied on Tue, Nov 25 2008 10:19 PM

Because they would risk their own destruction, and that wouldn't be profitable? I think...?

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Self-interest.  This questions comes up all of the time...

How would you fund a militia?  How would you fund an invasion?  Why would anyone invade a geographic area where there was no central command?

These questions are irrelevant, although I went through the same phase of trying to understand how it would work.

If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North

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Sage replied on Fri, Nov 28 2008 2:26 PM

Wars are expensive. Governments can externalize the costs of war (taxation, inflation, debt), so the have incentives to go to war more often. Private businesses, on the other hand, must pay all the costs of war.

LibertarianAnarchy.com - Government is immoral, unnecessary, and doesn't work!

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Juan replied on Fri, Nov 28 2008 3:49 PM
What's stopping the private militias from seizing power?
Nothing. Either a sizable amount of people realize that libertarianism is the only civilized way to live, or we'll be stuck with governments forever. It's true that war is expensive, but that doesn't stop war, as should be obvious to anyone who looked at 20th century history.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Zach:
What's stopping the private militias from seizing power? I've been entertaining the idea of no government as I start to get into Austrian Literature (recommended by you all!). Also, what's stopping the militias from bickering/being destroyed by a larger, more centralized foreign force?

The laws of economics.

But how does that legitimize the state? You may think your government protects you from the buggie men of anarchy, but what right does that give you to force your government onto other people?

Peace
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There is really little incentive for militias to do anything but defend their homes. Militias when used offensively are a disaster, which is their strongest selling point to me. They desert and frag commanders and generally become uncooperative and usually band together to demand just compensation if they ARE to go a marching off. The militia has little incentive to go a viking because they are normal everyday people with arms, tehy are already busy engaged in their lives outside of any war. They have more desie to plow a feild or lay a brick than pillage a town or slaughter a neighbor. It takes a lot of conditioning (read: military training) to get a man used to the idea of killing as a everyday activity. 

The state is a disease and Liberty is the both the victim and the only means to a lasting cure.

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My question about anarchy and this isn't tongue-in-cheek.

in anarchy what stops everything from being exactly the same as it is now?  powerful factions gain control of ever larger pieces of land until everyone is living under one of them.  under anarchy the collectivists eventually win.

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Humans are social and hierarchical beings.  They will naturally coalesce into communities of shared interests.  In anarchy, these communities will have to compete for capital.  A natural elite (as opposed to the bottom-up elite imposed by democracy) will arise and enable the peaceful activities of  intellectuals, artists and the merchant and trade classes.  The cuckoo-clock crazy thug with his band of lesser thugs will eventually find himself living under a bridge or scratching out a living on some land nobody wants.

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Juan replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 10:10 AM
Byzantine:
A natural elite (as opposed to the bottom-up elite imposed by democracy) will arise and enable the peaceful activities of intellectuals, artists and the merchant and trade classes.
Wrong. There's no such thing as a 'natural elite' enabling anything. What people here term 'natural elites' are actually oligarchies. The libertarian polical system is based on mutually respected individual rights, not on hierarchical organization. Libertarianism is not 'voluntary' feudalism.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Byzantine replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 11:34 AM

You can sermonize all you want.  It doesn't change the nature of humans as social and hierarchical beings.

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Juan replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 11:41 AM
I didn't say humans are not social beings, though it's not totally clear what's meant by that. And you can sermonize all you want, too. The only difference is that your conservative sermon doesn't square with the facts.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Byzantine replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 12:00 PM

Juan:
The only difference is that your conservative sermon doesn't square with the facts.

From the Mises Institute to your local football team to the crew at your watering hole, human society is hierarchical.  You'd have to live in a communist hellhole to find a flat society.  And in that event, you still have hierarchs:  the ones tasked with stamping down people of merit.

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Juan:
The only difference is that your conservative sermon doesn't square with the facts.

Which one would that be, the division of labour?

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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Stranger replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 12:09 PM

Byzantine:

Juan:
The only difference is that your conservative sermon doesn't square with the facts.

From the Mises Institute to your local football team to the crew at your watering hole, human society is hierarchical.  You'd have to live in a communist hellhole to find a flat society.  And in that event, you still have hierarchs:  the ones tasked with stamping down people of merit.

You forgot the first kind of hierarchy: the family.

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Juan replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 12:10 PM
GilesStratton:
Which one would that be, the division of labour?
HA. I was just about to post this as a response to Byzantine :

You're confusing division-of-labour with hierarchy.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Byzantine replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 12:14 PM

Juan:
You're confusing division-of-labour with hierarchy.

Leadership is a marketable commodity.

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Juan replied on Thu, Dec 4 2008 12:17 PM
To recap : No such thing as 'natural elites' in the political realm. If you want to say that the best engineers belong to some abstract natural elite, fine, but as a social theory that's wholly irrelevant.

February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church.
Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."

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Juan:
To recap : No such thing as 'natural elites' in the political realm. If you want to say that the best engineers belong to some abstract natural elite, fine, but as a social theory that's wholly irrelevant.

I get it, you just ignore the inconvenient facts.

"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"

Bob Dylan

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