Spidey, I think the issue is how do you measure progress or success?
I measure my progress with each conversation. Maybe you couldn't convince your Mom, but you learned more about her position, she learned more about your position, and you probably will be able to better explain yourself in future discussions.
I suppose, my take is that we have to look at this like building a pyramid. There are thousands and thousands of stones, no one remembers each one or how they got there, but without those individual stones you can't build something great.
And thus every discussion you have, you're changing things. Not just for the person you are talking to, but for yourself. You're getting better at presenting these ideas, and hopefully testing your own premises.
The one downside of the Ron Paul revolution is an all or nothing attitude. I think the revolution set itself up to deflate with each primary result. Just as some people are convinced that Paul (or Sanford or whoever) as President would fix everything.
Take your time. If you get through to 10 people over the course of the rest of your life, you'll have made a major difference, and personally I think you can do a lot better than 10 people if you stay positive and focused.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
liberty student: Spidey, I think the issue is how do you measure progress or success?
Yes, this is the issue. How do you measure success? Now if this were any other issue then all of the current techniques would be exposed for the complete failures that they are. The educating one person at a time strategy, the becoming a professor to change young minds, the we need to convince a majority to vote strategy, but because its anarchism no object critique is available and any suggestion that the current strategy is not working is considered blasphemy.
Spidey, you have come to the truth and realize that if you really believe the truth then it is a call to action. What is holding you back is that you are under the belief that your freedom is dependent on everyone else, it's not. Just focus on making your life free, forget trying to convince everyone else. you know the government is nothing more than a criminal enterprise so act accordingly.
Structure your life to minimize the amount criminals interfere with you, fight where you can, and you will be free to the extent that anyone can be free of crime.
Repeat to yourself, "I am not going to play by their rules anymore".
Maxliberty:What is holding you back is that you are under the belief that your freedom is dependent on everyone else, it's not.
Oh but it is.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
Spideynw: Second of all, I am just trying to get ideas on what to do now.
Second of all, I am just trying to get ideas on what to do now.
Leave the talking to Oprah. Instead wage a guerrila war against the state. Get on the dole and try to bankrupt it. Or get a government job and try to do as little as possible for your paycheck. Every body counts. The goal is to take more money from the state in all sorts of payments and expenses than you contribute to with fines and taxes. Maintain a tally as a scoreboard. It`s good for morale.Or if you want to help people and aleviate the suffering caused by the state, get job in the police and be a dirty cop and turn a blind eye on victimles crimes. Or do the victimless crimes yourself. Be a gunrunner. Flexible worktime, good money and it`s a service to the community.
The most practical thing to do if you are at a University is to start a libertarian society, there are plenty of libertarian speakers willing to speak on any kind of subject. It doesn't matter if only a half-dozen show up to your meetings and they are all socialists your engaging in the propaganda of the deed and showing that libertarianism is a force to be reckoned with. [It is also quite fun to see socialists strut arrogently into the room only to see them leave frustrated and bewildered after your keynote speaker has in debate terms teared them a new asshole.]
A HUGE step forward would be an Anarcho-Capitalist group outside of the college campus. Lets face it alot of those college kids are going to abandon the ideal when more mundane matters hit them. If we have an off campus organisation we'd probably have more committed members, such as people who have been in the real world for quite some time. Another thing I'd like to see is Anarcho-Capitalist getting involved in current matters (ex: the bailouts), and I don't mean posting a video on YouTube, I mean really getting involved and speaking our voices. This internet complaining and expousing of theories is getting us no where fast!
Nick. B:A HUGE step forward would be an Anarcho-Capitalist group outside of the college campus.
Yes!
Nick. B:This internet complaining and expousing of theories is getting us no where fast!
No!
We're winning the battle on the internet, which increasingly will be the battleground of the future. New media is our great organizer and equalizer.
Liberty Student, while I do agree that the war for the internet is of monumental importance for the political movements of tomorrow, (the Obama campaign is proof of that) we can't just put all our faith in it. We also have to rely on more traditional methods for achieving our ends. One of my main beefs with many AnCaps is that they believe that just through education can a voluntary society be achieved, and, that the fight's battlefield is only in thier respecitve country and online. I think that if we forced government to be held accountable for it's actions through AnCap watch groups people would see that we're the good guys and have more to offer than just a fancy abstract theory, and, in effect, be much more receptive to us.
MaxLiberty: Just focus on making your life free, forget trying to convince everyone else. you know the government is nothing more than a criminal enterprise so act accordingly.
Structure your life to minimize the amount criminals interfere with you, fight where you can, and you will be free to the extent that anyone can be free of crime.~end
MaxLiberty, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Nobody is truly free as long as the nation-states exist. You portray the situation as if there is only one criminal enterprise, when, in reality, there are hundreds of criminal enterprises (nation-states ) and if you become to much of nuisance they'll dispose of you. To make matters worse, they're running the show and the majority of their victims (us) see them as well intentioned, but misguided, humantarians. We can't just head for the hill basically because they own the hill or at the very least have major influence on the owner.
Nick. B: MaxLiberty: Just focus on making your life free, forget trying to convince everyone else. you know the government is nothing more than a criminal enterprise so act accordingly. Structure your life to minimize the amount criminals interfere with you, fight where you can, and you will be free to the extent that anyone can be free of crime.~end MaxLiberty, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. Nobody is truly free as long as the nation-states exist. You portray the situation as if there is only one criminal enterprise, when, in reality, there are hundreds of criminal enterprises (nation-states ) and if you become to much of nuisance they'll dispose of you. To make matters worse, they're running the show and the majority of their victims (us) see them as well intentioned, but misguided, humantarians. We can't just head for the hill basically because they own the hill or at the very least have major influence on the owner.
Answer a simple question please. In a free society will there be some people who choose to be criminals? If you answer yes, then you are living in that society right now, it's just that the criminals are so numerous that it seriously impacts your life more so than in a society where crime existed but it was much less frequently. Paying your taxes is no different than being robbed in the street. So how do you avoid being robbed in the street? Use the same attitude with any criminal enterprise regardless of size.
it's just that the criminals are so numerous that it seriously impacts your life
February 17 - 1600 - Giordano Bruno is burnt alive by the catholic church. Aquinas : "much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death."
Nick, no one is stopping you from going out and doing whatever you think is the best strategy.
But I will argue that without the decentralization of new media, Ron Paul would never have been able to institute a national precinct leader program, his book would have never made the NYT through the book bomb, and his fund raising would have sucked.
New media allows us to organize, not just sell the message. We do not and will not control institutional media, and thus the maintaining a form grip and level of competency with new media is essential if we want to continue to grow and gain momentum.
Internet is a good medium for spreading information, for instance I think the Mises institute policy of committing to audio all the great libertarian works is excellent. I commute a long distance to work and listening to Rothbard's History of America makes the regular traffic jams on the state run roads much more bearable.
That said the very selectivity of the New Media means that people have a tendency to filter out anything that challenges their beliefs. Libertarians have their corner of the internet, so do the socialists, the greens, the neo-cons etc but they are essentially preaching to the choir. The New Media has massively reduced the cost of making propaganda, but it still needs to be distributed to the consumers. Which is why things like local clubs and societys are just as important.
I agree that greater emphasis must be made on forming libertarian clubs that are not just student societies (which have the bad habbit of closing down once the key organiser has graduated) but its important to try and incorporate it into a student society for the simple reason that campus facilities are generally free if students run it (even if the real leaders are outside the University).
Maxliberty: Answer a simple question please. In a free society will there be some people who choose to be criminals? If you answer yes, then you are living in that society right now, it's just that the criminals are so numerous that it seriously impacts your life more so than in a society where crime existed but it was much less frequently. Paying your taxes is no different than being robbed in the street. So how do you avoid being robbed in the street? Use the same attitude with any criminal enterprise regardless of size.~end
Maxliberty, again I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you. In a free society criminals would be held (or at the very least not be rewarded) for thier deeds. Right now in our present unfree society, not only are criminal enterprises numerous, their leaders are sometimes rewarded with Nobel Peace Prizes, lauded in history textbooks, or even have statues built in thier honor. Now as far as avoiding the government as if they were street muggers, well it's a game of Russian Roulette, if your able to win and avoid the bullet you get to live another day, however if you lose the game, well, you're pretty much dead.
corpus delicti:My suggestion would be to stop implying to people, who are trying to do good, that they are doing evil.
I agree. Most people believe they are doing good, even if they are doing bad. People who shoot up abortion clinics think they are doing good, as do commies, fascists, etc. they have been raised beliving that what they are doing is right(in most cases, I would think).
Liberty student: Nick, no one is stopping you from going out and doing whatever you think is the best strategy.
New media allows us to organize, not just sell the message. We do not and will not control institutional media, and thus the maintaining a form grip and level of competency with new media is essential if we want to continue to grow and gain momentum.~end
Liberty student it is great that our ideas are accesible to a greater mass, but books, blogs, online sites can only accomplish so much. Theory is great, but it's nothing without action, just like action without theory is pointless, you need to an equillibrium of both elements. As far as New media allowing us to organise, well the only organisation I have seen is through forum boards. And as far as no one stopping me from doing whatever is the best strategy, well it's kinda hard when you're the only serious anarchist you know of. You see we have to change our slogan from "Let us take our message to the blogs and the bookshop so we can expand on our theory" to "Let us take our message to the streets, let us grow in numbers outside of the computer cafes, and put our theories into practice. Don't misinterpret me, what I'm saying does not mean that we have to become violent, just politically active, just for it to be known that we have more to offer than just a book or a blog.
Nick. B:Liberty student it is great that our ideas are accesible to a greater mass, but books, blogs, online sites can only accomplish so much. Theory is great, but it's nothing without action, just like action without theory is pointless, you need to an equillibrium of both elements.
Yes, I think we are all aware of that.
Nick. B:As far as New media allowing us to organise, well the only organisation I have seen is through forum boards.
MeetUp, MySpace, Facebook. You need to get out (online) more.
Nick. B:And as far as no one stopping me from doing whatever is the best strategy, well it's kinda hard when you're the only serious anarchist you know of.
Well, guess what? This online community will help you find all sorts of anarchists who are active.
Nick. B:You see we have to change our slogan from "Let us take our message to the blogs and the bookshop so we can expand on our theory" to "Let us take our message to the streets, let us grow in numbers outside of the computer cafes, and put our theories into practice.
There is no "we". Don't take this personal, but you just got here. It might be a little early to bust out the soapbox, at least until you get to know the lay of the land.
Nick. B:Don't misinterpret me, what I'm saying does not mean that we have to become violent, just politically active, just for it to be known that we have more to offer than just a book or a blog.
Do you know any of us? Slow down.
Get to know us. Ask questions. Join a group. Add some friends. Find out who is in your area, or where you can hookup with people in your area.
Use new media to organize and communicate.
Maxliberty: Yes, I think we are all aware of that.~end
Well it's good that we can agree on that issue.
Maxliberty: MeetUp, MySpace, Facebook. You need to get out (online) more.~end
I admit I don't use these sites that often, however, the conclusion I've come to through others friends use is that people who use these sites are more concerned about finding new entertainment, relationships, music, and basically anything other than political idealogy. Also it caters to people around the world, so even if I found another AnCap he could be in entirely different country. Again the web will become a valuable tool as time goes on, but lets not bet all our money on it.
Maxliberty: There is no "we". Don't take this personal, but you just got here. It might be a little early to bust out the soapbox, at least until you get to know the lay of the land.~end
When I meant we I didn't mean you, or even this site, I meant Anarcho-Capitalist all over the world. And I'm sorry if I sound preachy, but I just think we can do more. I understand there's a pecking order and I'll try everything in my power to stay in bounds.
Maxliberty: Do you know any of us? Slow down.
Use new media to organize and communicate.~end
No I don't know anybody here yet, I'll concede that to you. With that said can I ask you two question: 1. What do you do to help establish a free voluntary society? and 2. Are there any anarchist groups on this site that I can join, and if so where can I join? Thanks in advance.
I am not Max Liberty. And you can use the quote button. Your method of manually quoting is very hard to read.
Nick. B:I admit I don't use these sites that often, however, the conclusion I've come to through others friends use is that people who use these sites are more concerned about finding new entertainment, relationships, music, and basically anything other than political idealogy. Also it caters to people around the world, so even if I found another AnCap he could be in entirely different country. Again the web will become a valuable tool as time goes on, but lets not bet all our money on it.
Let's not bet all of our money on a valuable tool in the future. I take it you're not an entrepreneur? lol
Nick. B:When I meant we I didn't mean you, or even this site, I meant Anarcho-Capitalist all over the world. And I'm sorry if I sound preachy, but I just think we can do more. I understand there's a pecking order and I'll try everything in my power to stay in bounds.
Well there's not a pecking order, but I'm saying maybe you should familiarize yourself with the existing environment before characterizing it or trying to influence it. You know, build up your energy and use it effectively.
Happy to have you and your enthusiasm here Nick.
Nick. B:No I don't know anybody here yet, I'll concede that to you. With that said can I ask you two question: 1. What do you do to help establish a free voluntary society? and 2. Are there any anarchist groups on this site that I can join, and if so where can I join? Thanks in advance.
1. We discuss ways to approach non-Anarchists. We debate anarchism. We debate the best methods to proceed. If you're an anarchist, I assume you have something of an individualist streak. It's like herding cats around here. We're all quite independent and stubborn at times.
Hang out and check out the community GROUPS page. They aren't as active as they could be, but maybe they need a guy like you with some energy and passion.
2. We're probably about 80% anarchist here. I'd say 90% of the regulars. If you want to know where resources and groups are, good guys to ask might be Wombatron, BrainPolice and ryanpatgray.
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