liberty student:I think it is hard for you to talk or put things in words, because you refuse to learn, you refuse to listen, you refuse to debate honestly, and you refuse to apply rational thought.You can't even begin to say that what we may believe or think is wrong, because you don't even understand it! It's just a lot of crying and complaining without any substance.
liberty student:It's very sad Cesar, that communism has made you so ignorant, so incapable of critical thinking, that you resort to posting things like this. Obviously communism and libertarianism are complete opposites. But you can't see it, because you are incapable of absorbing any thoughts outside of the ones you were programmed with in Cuba. You might live in America, but you still think like a communist slave.
It's interesting, really. I recall some time ago in another thread he posted about how Cuban schools are superior to schools of the American "free market," yet his arguments amount to nothing more than how he feels about whatever issue. Not having a full command of the English language is only a valid excuse for so long.
Diminishing Marginal Utility - IT'S THE LAW!
Sure thing only thing is in Cuba I had Education and Healthcare, under your Libertarianism I would have neither.
I sometimes get the ilussion that most of you are Rich kids. I have yet to see a poor guy talking about Libertarianism, although one of the greatest achievement of greedy capitalists is to have poor people to think like if they are rich. Just Awesome.
Let me tell you something else. Despite loving this country (look a the flag) i know you can buy your way out of everything and you call that a corrupt system. I call humanity in action trough the mechanisms of supply and demand. And the only thing that prevents more corruption from happening is authority under law and punishment.
Cesar:Sure thing only thing is in Cuba I had Education and Healthcare, under your Libertarianism I would have neither.
Cesar:I sometimes get the ilussion that most of you are Rich kids.
Cesar:one of the greatest achievement of greedy capitalists is to have poor people to think like if they are rich.
Cesar:Despite loving this country (look a the flag)
HOw can you say how things would work under a system never implemented??
I know this: "If there is room for errors, errors will be made" "if something can go wrong, it will" "NOTHING GOES AS PLANNED"
Cesar: HOw can you say how things would work under a system never implemented??
How can you say they will go wrong when you don't even know what the system is, let alone if it has been tried!
Cesar, until you learn what libertarianism and anarchism are, you will continue to just post foolishness.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Cesar: Sure thing only thing is in Cuba I had Education and Healthcare, under your Libertarianism I would have neither.
Do you not have access to food since we don't have a "Universal Food" program? What about clothes?
"I cannot prove, but am prepared to affirm, that if you take care of clarity in reasoning, most good causes will take care of themselves, while some bad ones are taken care of as a matter of course." -Anthony de Jasay
You are right, i can not prove it wrong because I has never been implemented. But is philosophy based on rebel ideas, with all your respect.
Maybe I am a big fool. But I have seen a lot of both current systems and I fear to death extremes like the one you propose.
liberty student: Cesar: HOw can you say how things would work under a system never implemented?? How can you say they will go wrong when you don't even know what the system is, let alone if it has been tried! Cesar, until you learn what libertarianism and anarchism are, you will continue to just post foolishness.
Why would you have neither? Do you plan to stop working? Do you think you will stay stupid and sick rather than go to a charity school or hospital?
Cesar:I sometimes get the ilussion that most of you are Rich kids. I have yet to see a poor guy talking about Libertarianism, although one of the greatest achievement of greedy capitalists is to have poor people to think like if they are rich. Just Awesome.
I'm not rich. I've had better years, but I work for everything I have. No help from family, no help from the state, and no debt.
Why would you continue making personal judgments, when you still do not even know what libertarianism is? Let alone back away from your comments that you would murder me for your own health care. I think you should be the one undergoing a character examination.
For example, how many people have you already killed? If someone killed your son or mother for health care, would you be ok with that?
These are the types of character questions that are interesting, not whether or not libertarians are wealthy. Besides, who would admit to you, a wannabe murderer, that they have the wealth to pay for your health care? You might thug them and steal all their money.
Cesar:Let me tell you something else. Despite loving this country (look a the flag) i know you can buy your way out of everything and you call that a corrupt system. I call humanity in action trough the mechanisms of supply and demand. And the only thing that prevents more corruption from happening is authority under law and punishment.
Authority is corruption Cesar. When you told me you would kill me if I didn't let you rob me, you assumed you had authority to take from me for health care, and that is why you justify violence. If you knew it was wrong to steal, you wouldn't try to steal from me with violence. But you believe you have the authority to take whatever you want. This is the flaw of government.
I'm wondering how deep your programming goes. Because you seem to dodge accumulating any real knowledge, or responding to any rational discourse, by skating away into personal comments and unfounded assertions.
Anyway, I tire of you. I doubt someone like you, who isn't very bright, and probably doesn't have the motivation to earn his own living, will travel all of the way to Canada to murder me for my money. Tonight, I will sleep safely and soundly.
Cesar:You are right, i can not prove it wrong because I has never been implemented. But is philosophy based on rebel ideas, with all your respect.
The people who figured out how to fly were rebels. The great explorers, poets and artists were rebels. Plain thinkers accomplish very little.
And yes, I am right.
Cesar:Maybe I am a big fool. But I have seen a lot of both current systems and I fear to death extremes like the one you propose.
You are an enormous fool. Biggest fool since Ruben.
You only fear what you do not understand. And because you are arrogant and lazy, you continue to avoid learning. No one can help you but yourself.
Cesar:HOw can you say how things would work under a system never implemented??
Our ideas are based on reason. No amount of empirical data can prove or falsify claims of political economy.
Cesar:But I have seen a lot of both current systems and I fear to death extremes like the one you propose.
Ya know, no one's saying that you can't have someone to tax you and make laws for you, if that's what you want; just don't impose it on the rest of us.
You could not have quoted a better example. But to my believe not everything can be supplied in a free market and I can prove my argument.
Nations with the best Education and Healthcare do so far away from anything libertarian.
A diamond is piece of nothing yet people die for them everyday because of their value, a value given by free market. But If you are in a desert, thirsty, you would pay whatever it takes for water.
It just means that the whole problem is not free market or supply and demand, it is about scarcity. We just value things according to their scarcity. And the well being of society can not be left to scarcity, specially education and healthcare.
I consider it a crime which is solved by everyone paying for it.
Solid_Choke: Cesar: Sure thing only thing is in Cuba I had Education and Healthcare, under your Libertarianism I would have neither. Do you not have access to food since we don't have a "Universal Food" program? What about clothes?
Solomon: Our ideas are based on reason. No amount of empirical data can prove or falsify claims of political economy.
I disagree. Sufficient empirical data can falsifiy theories of political economy, but not prove them. To prove them you must rely on formal logic. A falsification of a theory would simply mean that the logical form of the theory or truth of the premises were mistaken.
Cesar: You could not have quoted a better example. But to my believe not everything can be supplied in a free market and I can prove my argument.
But since there's no nation with a truly free-market, how can you prove it? Not only that- but "great healthcare" comes at a great cost for those socialistic countries- just as the US having the most powerful military in the world also comes at a great cost.
Why wouldn't you have education and healthcare under a free-market? If people want those- then they will get it. The United States does not have a free-market healthcare or educational system- and we see very clearly how poor many public schools are.
I also think its insulting to say that everyone here is a bunch of rich kids. I come from a very poor family that eventually moved here from Pakistan. I got interested in Austrian economics after looking at how corrupt the Pakistani government- and eventually, all governments are.
Cesar:You could not have quoted a better example. But to my believe not everything can be supplied in a free market and I can prove my argument.
Well, not everything can be supplied in any socio-economic system due to the problem of scarcity. A free market, however, has been shown to be the best in solving the economic problems we face.
Cesar:A diamond is piece of nithing yet people die for them everyday because of their value, a value given by free market. But If you are in a desert, thirsty, you would pay whatever it takes for water.
Well, that is because of subjective theory of value. There are people who value diamonds very highly, and are willing to trade things totaling a high value to obtain them. Also, they are scarce, so only these high-bidders can obtain them. However, in a desert, when a person is about to die of dehydration, his value scale changes to where water is a very high priority.
Cesar:We just value things according to their scarcity.
No, people value things according to how much they anticipate it will satisfy them. A good can be very limited, and still, nobody will buy it.
Cesar:And the well being of society can not be left to scarcity, specially education and healthcare.
It is precisely the problem of scarcity that acts as a barrier to provide things to satisfy people. It is the problem of scarcity that necessitates human action. Why isn't everything a condition of human welfare, like the oxygen we breathe. Scarcity exists regardless of the economic system imposed.
Someone, teach Cesar some Economics 101!
Schools are labour camps.
Cesar: You could not have quoted a better example. But to my believe not everything can be supplied in a free market and I can prove my argument. Nations with the best Education and Healthcare do so far away from anything libertarian. A diamond is piece of nothing yet people die for them everyday because of their value, a value given by free market. But If you are in a desert, thirsty, you would pay whatever it takes for water. It just means that the whole problem is not free market or supply and demand, it is about scarcity. We just value things according to their scarcity. And the well being of society can not be left to scarcity, specially education and healthcare. I consider it a crime which is solved by everyone paying for it. Solid_Choke: Cesar: Sure thing only thing is in Cuba I had Education and Healthcare, under your Libertarianism I would have neither. Do you not have access to food since we don't have a "Universal Food" program? What about clothes?
The US have the best healthcare system in the world in term of quality and yet it was semi-private in comparsion with countries with even more socialized programs. Wanna bet that it can do even better in the free market?
Also you can't get rid of scarcity. Otherwise you basically destoryed the science of economic.
http://libregamewiki.org - The world's only encyclopedia on free(as in freedom) gaming.
auctionguy10
I dont see how having no govt at all will make it any better.
In a free market only those willing and able to buy and sell get the goods. By having universal healthcare and education we have just come together and spread the risk of not being able to pay for them.
We should run Healthcare and Education like the Military.
Everything in the US arsenal is supplied by private for profit companies, this creates innovation and competition and yet we can have the best army, best navy, best airforce.
I believe we can have all schools private as well as all hospitals privates but let society pay for them.
Cesar: In a free market only those willing and able to buy and sell get the goods. By having universal healthcare and education we have just come together and spread the risk of not being able to pay for them. We should run Healthcare and Education like the Military. Everything in the US arsenal is supplied by private for profit companies, this creates innovation and competition and yet we can have the best army, best navy, best airforce. I believe we can have all schools private as well as all hospitals privates but let society pay for them.
Not to mentioned that we have some of the most expensive military in the world that's also quite ineffective when pitted against Iraqi insurgency. Yeah, the military is pretty much a black hole for society's wealth.
Some 80 mercenaries are more effective in destroying a bandit of ten thousands than thousands of United Nations peacekeepers, who didn't do much of anything to stop the blood diamond wars. Government will waste your money like nobody's business.
I also wonder why we should force everybody to pay. Are charity empires that provide education and health to those who can't pay not good enough for you? The for-profit corporations is not the only thing that exist in a free market society.
Cesar:I believe we can have all schools private as well as all hospitals privates but let society pay for them.
Cesar, private institutions mean private money.
Cesar:In a free market only those willing and able to buy and sell get the goods. By having universal healthcare and education we have just come together and spread the risk of not being able to pay for them.
If you are not willing to pay for healthcare, then you should not get healthcare. Its so simple. If you value other things more than health insurance, then no healthcare for you. Or you can always throw yourself upon the mercy of people, and charity. I beleive the church plays a big role in this, and it would be much larger if the government wasnt in the way. If you truely needed healthcare in a free society, and you were truely unable to pay for it, it would be provided. But only by those who wish to provide it, not by everyone. I oppose taxation. But would I freely donate the 40% of my money the government takes away to private charities? Maybe not all of it, but a lot of it, yes. Because I beleive in helping people, but through my FREE CHOICE, not through government coersion and guns.
Cesar:We should run Healthcare and Education like the Military.
Give them limitless budgets, allow them to never have to account for where the money goes, hide everything behind the wall of 'national security', lost BILLIONS of dollars a year due to bad accounting, REQUIRE that people register to be forced against their will to join, require that to participate in the activity they may not have freely chosen, they must surrender all of their rights in order to better serve the masses?
Cesar, you want a government run like the military, go back to Cuba. Fidel will die soon anyway, they need another crazy dictator and it seems you fit the bill from an ideologial point of view. I'm sorry I'm being so harsh, but I tire of your banter.
He is correct in assuming that paleo-liberalism seeks an end to protectionism, raise the standard of living for ALL people, and bring about equality under the law. Thus the ideals behind socialism are very similar. THESE ARE 'ENDS' PEOPLE, NOT THE MEANS. The difference is in how one goes about achieving ones' ends. The means are the most important, one appears to work, the other does not.
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