Many years ago, a man took his case to the Supreme Court of the US. He case was against proper trial representation. Until that time if you could not afford a lawyer, you did not get one.
So.....how can a fundamental right be left to the market???
I am not in favor of either, private or public healthcare/education.
I am in favor of QUALITY healthcare and education for ALL. If we can have the greatest army, we can have the greatest healthcare system and best education.
How do we get there??...........I don’t care. But let's agree to make this..........a fundamental right.
If you are forced to pay for wars anyways, and there is nothing you can do about it, why not pay a little bit more to save some of your countrymen???
How about I pay for neither, eh?
-Jon
To darkness I condemn you...
JParker: From openwiki: "Economists and organizations sometimes accused of vulgar libertarianism include Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman, Madsen Pirie, Radley Balko and the Adam Smith Institute." I'm honored.
From openwiki: "Economists and organizations sometimes accused of vulgar libertarianism include Ludwig von Mises, Milton Friedman, Madsen Pirie, Radley Balko and the Adam Smith Institute."
I'm honored.
Not sure how Mises falls into that group.
"You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
Bob Dylan
I guess is criminal and stealing ( as I have been told) to take money from anyone to pay for others need. Well, for hundreds of years now citizens are taxed to pay for wars. If there is nothing you can do to prevent that from happening, why do you get outraged if they come to tax you some more to pay for other's people's well being ???? That is discussing.
JParker: Cesar: If you are forced to pay for wars anyways, and there is nothing you can do about it, why not pay a little bit more to save some of your countrymen??? JParker: Cesar:Ever heard the saying no atheist in a foxhole. You tell you dying or deceased son that you cannot afford to pay for his healthcare.........but it’s ok because you believe in free markets. Right?? And you'd rather tell me at the point of a gun to save your dying son? See here's the issue you're ignoring: if your son is dying, private charity will step in. The church, individuals who want to help, hospitals that provide free care based off grants from wealthy donors. The government is not the only provider, and with the government out of the way, these others will have more ability to provide. And even if they did not, using a gun to force action is slavery, not an argument. Remember, reason ends where the barrel begins. This relates to anything we've been discussing how? Your dying son is fighting a war?
Cesar: If you are forced to pay for wars anyways, and there is nothing you can do about it, why not pay a little bit more to save some of your countrymen??? JParker: Cesar:Ever heard the saying no atheist in a foxhole. You tell you dying or deceased son that you cannot afford to pay for his healthcare.........but it’s ok because you believe in free markets. Right?? And you'd rather tell me at the point of a gun to save your dying son? See here's the issue you're ignoring: if your son is dying, private charity will step in. The church, individuals who want to help, hospitals that provide free care based off grants from wealthy donors. The government is not the only provider, and with the government out of the way, these others will have more ability to provide. And even if they did not, using a gun to force action is slavery, not an argument. Remember, reason ends where the barrel begins.
JParker: Cesar:Ever heard the saying no atheist in a foxhole. You tell you dying or deceased son that you cannot afford to pay for his healthcare.........but it’s ok because you believe in free markets. Right?? And you'd rather tell me at the point of a gun to save your dying son? See here's the issue you're ignoring: if your son is dying, private charity will step in. The church, individuals who want to help, hospitals that provide free care based off grants from wealthy donors. The government is not the only provider, and with the government out of the way, these others will have more ability to provide. And even if they did not, using a gun to force action is slavery, not an argument. Remember, reason ends where the barrel begins.
Cesar:Ever heard the saying no atheist in a foxhole. You tell you dying or deceased son that you cannot afford to pay for his healthcare.........but it’s ok because you believe in free markets. Right??
And you'd rather tell me at the point of a gun to save your dying son? See here's the issue you're ignoring: if your son is dying, private charity will step in. The church, individuals who want to help, hospitals that provide free care based off grants from wealthy donors. The government is not the only provider, and with the government out of the way, these others will have more ability to provide. And even if they did not, using a gun to force action is slavery, not an argument. Remember, reason ends where the barrel begins.
This relates to anything we've been discussing how? Your dying son is fighting a war?
GilesStratton:Not sure how Mises falls into that group.
Just pulled the page, as I was unfamiliar with the term. If you'd explain what you meant by it, I would appreciate it.
From my basic understanding of the term, it would seem you're implying that I support the current status-quo of business interests, under the false beleif that businesses are powerful because they earned it, rather than the government gave it to them. I do no believe this at all, but rather believe that in a true free-market, there would still be dominant businesses, because there are people who are simply better at running business than others. Would Jeff Immelt be any less of a great business leader without government intervention? I beleive he would have been just as good. I dont blame current businesses for taking advantage of the government and lobbying system. You do whatever you can to create shareholder value, and it would be stupid to not manipulate the system to your advantage. Do I believe it is just? No way. Do I want it to stop? Absolutely. Let the market decide everything. But still, this does not defeat my argument that genetics and luck creates big business and provides opportunities for people.
And upon further research, it was the creator of the term Vulgar Libertarians, Kevin Carson, who lumped in Mises.
See 25%down he quotes Human Action
http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/01/vulgar-libertarianism-watch-part-1.html
Seems this term is used by conspiracy theorists that argue that all industry is out to abuse the workers?
Cesar:I guess is criminal and stealing ( as I have been told) to take money from anyone to pay for others need. Well, for hundreds of years now citizens are taxed to pay for wars. If there is nothing you can do to prevent that from happening, why do you get outraged if they come to tax you some more to pay for other's people's well being ???? That is discussing.
Ok, I understand now. My argument is simple: I dont want to pay for your war either. Iraq did nothing to me. Vietnam did nothing to us in the 60's. If they people want to pay for it, they may. I choose not to. In the 40's I would have gladly paid money to fight Germany. And what I can do to prevent that from happening is to support the removal of this government, to support free thinking sites such as this one, to let my voice be heard, and know that eventually reason triumphs.
JParker
Could you difine this free market of yours??? Maybe a world with no goverment, just people trading??? Please answer
I my modest opinion. Free Markets means no govt whatsoever. That is very unrealistic. You will always have someone to tax you, even your wife.
So........if govt will always be around to tax you to pay for their friends. Why does it bother you to be tax so that others can get a better education and healthcare???
Maybe you dont mind being tax for wars, because you believe your army is here to protect you.
I guess in a free market of yours, why have an army???
This guy is obviously not even worth talking to.
At most, 5% of the population would need to stop complying to bring down the government.
Oh, lol, now he ignores me.
Spideynw: This guy is obviously not even worth talking to.
I think I have to agree. Cesar, I suggest you read all the threads that discuss these topics in depth. Also browse the recommended reading list, and especially read Human Action if you haven't. I would also suggest Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, though it's Rayndian views are not always appreciated on this site. At least here everyone will listen and have a conversation with you. Once you've done more research, I'm sure everyone on the board will be happy to discuss these things with you.
GilesStratton: Oh, lol, now he ignores me.
No i did not. I just told you that you are free. There is no need for you to reply anything to me. I thank you anyways for your attention.
JParker: I think I have to agree. Cesar, I suggest you read all the threads that discuss these topics in depth. Also browse the recommended reading list, and especially read Human Action if you haven't. I would also suggest Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, though it's Rayndian views are not always appreciated on this site. At least here everyone will listen and have a conversation with you. Once you've done more research, I'm sure everyone on the board will be happy to discuss these things with you.
I do not even know why you are trying. He obviously has no interest in learning. He just likes to spout idiocies in caps, bold, and large font.
I would just like you to answer me one more thing. You or anyone else.
This stuff that you guys talk so much about "free markets". How does it work??? you can just tell me in a few sentenses. I am getting the feeling that what Marx was to communism maybe Human Action is the same but to the far right???
Want to know how free markets work in two words? Voluntary Exchange. Nothing else. Simplicity is what makes it so complicated for people to understand.
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