DBratton: He didn't get put in jail for leaving a couch outside. He got put in jail for his behavior in court. I wasn't citing the video. I was commenting on the text at the link you supplied. The citation in my previous post clearly implies you guys were trying to pack the court. Whether that was true or not it's what the article says. Learn to pick your battles. This one wasn't worth it.
He didn't get put in jail for leaving a couch outside. He got put in jail for his behavior in court.
I wasn't citing the video. I was commenting on the text at the link you supplied. The citation in my previous post clearly implies you guys were trying to pack the court. Whether that was true or not it's what the article says.
Learn to pick your battles. This one wasn't worth it.
Short term it might not be worth it; if the guy doesn't try to force a spectacle out of it, it might be worth it in that others who sympathize with the various movements in NH might view this as a small reminded of what work is to be done regarding the some judges attitudes (seems to the case at the keene site).Personally, I think the intention was sound, but it lacked common sense in "not making it easy for your enemy to prosecute you". If he doesn't make a further spectacle about it, no harm done in the long-term.
WARNING: This signature violates Rule 5. Stay classy!
By the way, John Brown was a hero---literally a freedom fighter. To describe him as a lunatic---despite his misguided religious beliefs---is simply wrong. If even a quarter of men opposed villany with his fervour, freedom would have been won a long time ago.
No offense, but your citation from the source in no way implies that there were large numbers of liberty activists there. It implies only that there were lots of police there. Indeed, it suggests that the police outnumber the activists and nothing more. Read more carefully next time. Also, it says nothing about intimidation.
You need to separate the pictures you generate in your head when reading from the denotative meaning of the words, dude.
Nitroadict:Short term it might not be worth it; if the guy doesn't try to force a spectacle out of it, it might be worth it in that others who sympathize with the various movements in NH might view this as a small reminded of what work is to be done regarding the some judges attitudes (seems to the case at the keene site).
What might it be worth it exactly? This looks to me like the kind of stunt that gets libertarians branded as loonies.
The judge is not the problem here. He was just doing what he thought he had to do to control his courtroom. Ian's objection is to whatever ordinance prevents him from leaving a couch in his front yard. Going into court and picking a fight with the judge over something like this is just foolish. In a hundred days when he completes his contempt of court sentence he'll still owe the fine and it will still be illegal to have a couch in his front yard. The problem is Ian's lack of judgment. You have to pick your battles (and pick ones you can win).
Nitroadict:If he doesn't make a further spectacle about it, no harm done in the long-term.
It looks to me like he is trying to attract attention. He does a podcast and evidently has a following.
Look, my mother is a lawyer of 30 years. She looked at the footage and thought that the judge was over-reacting. Also, getting branded as a loon is not a problem. Consider all the stunts carried out by the new left in the 60's and 70's. Yet now they are mainstream: They are in power.
All publicity is good publicity.
Franklin: Look, my mother is a lawyer of 30 years. She looked at the footage and thought that the judge was over-reacting. Also, getting branded as a loon is not a problem. Consider all the stunts carried out by the new left in the 60's and 70's. Yet now they are mainstream: They are in power. All publicity is good publicity.
I believe the saying is more so "There's no such thing as bad publicity".
Franklin: Consider all the stunts carried out by the new left in the 60's and 70's. Yet now they are mainstream: They are in power.
Consider all the stunts carried out by the new left in the 60's and 70's. Yet now they are mainstream: They are in power.
I'm not sure I would make this case. First, they are in power which is not a libertarian end, and second, they became what they abhorred.
Franklin: All publicity is good publicity.
But not all people or causes that receive publicity are good.
If you find something evil that wobbles, push it. - Gary North
Franklin:Consider all the stunts carried out by the new left in the 60's and 70's.
They did not accomplish what they set out to do though. The crazy protesting radical left ceased to be a serious political force after 1969. Richard Nixon was reelected in 1972 by the biggest electoral landslide in US history. His opponent didn't even carry his own home state. It was the exhaustion of the patience of the public that ultimately brought about the end of the Vietnam war (a war which lasted from 1964 to 1975).
DBratton: Nitroadict:Consider all the stunts carried out by the new left in the 60's and 70's. They did not accomplish what they set out to do though. The crazy protesting radical left ceased to be a serious political force after 1969. Richard Nixon was reelected in 1972 by the biggest electoral landslide in US history. His opponent didn't even carry his own home state. It was the exhaustion of the patience of the public that ultimately brought about the end of the Vietnam war (a war which lasted from 1964 to 1975).
Nitroadict:Consider all the stunts carried out by the new left in the 60's and 70's.
Franklin said that :(
Nitroadict:Franklin said that :(
He is suggesting all those stunts did some good. I'm saying they didn't.
DBratton: Nitroadict:Franklin said that :( He is suggesting all those stunts did some good. I'm saying they didn't.
I know, but when you quoted Franklin's words, my name popped up as the one being quoted in the quote box, which I'm not lol. Maybe this is just a quirk of the forum software ?
Nitroadict:I know, but when you quoted Franklin's words, my name popped up as the one being quoted in the quote box, which I'm not lol. Maybe this is just a quirk of the forum software ?
More likely my bad. I edited the incorrect attribution. I don't see a way to delete this exchange though.
I am a fan of the FSP, free keene, ridley, and the rest. I think what they are doing is important.
That being said, either you or I have a misunderstanding of the role LvMI. It is not, I think, the place of the Mises Institute to dabble in individual libertarian protests and activism any more than it is, excuse the unlikely comparison, the place of a General to be firing a pistol on the front lines. You would not expect the corporate office of whatever chain store to come down and help you with a spill on aisle 7, as you cannot expect the mises institute to get involved in specific concrete cases of injustice.
"Advancing he Scholarship of Liberty in the tradition of the Austrian School" is quite different from "Advancing libertarian causes through grassroots activism and civil disobedience".
JAB
I think the New Left was ultimately successful. Its ideas have entered the popular consciousness. Let me be clear; I am only trying to demonstrate that people perceived as outsiders can have their ideas become mainstream---the publicity they generated did assist the decimination of their ideas. History is filled with people who used publicity to bring their ideas into currency.
Publicity stunts I mean. Also, I am not saying that the end of the New Left was good. I am only saying that they were able to achieve their ends. Their ideas did gain currency. I think that is pretty hard to deny.
Nitroadict:Short term it might not be worth it; if the guy doesn't try to force a spectacle out of it
I've heard some talk of gathering a large number of liberty activists to "shut down" Keene with protests until he's released. In New Hampshire, I could see that sort of activism happening. They certainly had lots of protests when Lauren Canario got locked up, and she wasn't in for anywhere near three months.
OK, some people here are obviously not familiar with the situation. Ian was cited for having the couch on his lawn in violation of some obscure code thingummy. He decided not to pay because he believed that the fine was unjust. What you believe based on those facts, I don't so much care about. But what you apparently don't know is that he offered repeatedly to remove the couch under the condition that his accuser spoke to him about it (trying to uphold the "good neighbor policy" of the Keene libertarians). The city has refused to produce the accuser. There is no evidence of a damaged party.
Ian started ticking the judge off when he insisted on his 6th amendment rights to face his accuser. At one point in an earlier hearing, the judge literally shouted him down and forbade him from making any statements in his defense.
What is happening here is that a bunch of libertarians have moved into one area, and have decided not to assent to unjust laws. Since Ian is an internationally-syndicated talk show host (hardly the "wannabe" Bratton thinks he is), he is perceived as sort of a leader in the movement. This whole thing appears to be a setup to lock him up and try to make an example out of him. Note, for example, in the video, that the bailiff moves to arrest him BEFORE the judge orders him to do so. And this guy Burke has a history, by the way, of moving trials out of the public eye and delivering sentences in secret. And in public, he is well known to have temper tantrums which result in peaceful people getting thrown in jail. He's statist scum to the core, and "he's just doing his job" is no excuse.
Frankly I'm shocked and rather saddened that people here are siding with the court. This is a matter of an individual refusing to surrender his property rights to the petty tyrannies of the town of Keene, and even after his making an offer to settle the matter peacefully with the alleged "damaged party", the town insisted on using their monopoly on force to try to scare the Keene activists. It was never about the law, or a victim. It was about obedience, and Ian refused to give that to them. Good for him. Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
Pro Christo et Libertate integre!
MacFall:But what you apparently don't know is that he offered repeatedly to remove the couch under the condition that his accuser spoke to him about it
What country lets you choose the terms under which you will comply with their laws?
MacFall:Ian started ticking the judge off when he insisted on his 6th amendment rights to face his accuser.
He was given a misdemeanor criminal citation. His accuser was the state and they were present. Ian picked a fight he can't win over an issue that doesn't matter. Now Franklin wants us all to get on the phone and harass the judge. What do you imagine the outcome of all this to be? Are we striking some great blow for couches on the front lawn? Now if he were refusing to pay his taxes I might just be impressed but this is silly.
PS: The sixth amendment does not give you the right to confront the original complainant. It gives you the right to confront the witnesses the state has chosen to use against you.
DBratton: MacFall:But what you apparently don't know is that he offered repeatedly to remove the couch under the condition that his accuser spoke to him about it What country lets you choose the terms under which you will comply with their laws?
Argumentum ad populam for the lose.
. . .Now if he were refusing to pay his taxes I might just be impressed but this is silly.
He hasn't paid taxes for years, and has been openly encouraging other people to do the same. I guess once you take that step, standing up to little tyrants like the Keene code enforcer seems easy.
What surprises me here is no so much that Dbratton is defending the state (and yes, he has repeatedly made it clear that this is what he's doing), but the fact that he's not aware of Ian's status in the libertarian movement and has the gaul to imply that he's just some random guy.
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