Libertarians For Obama

banned:

Rubén:

Examples of both kinds of states exist in today's world. The former have happier citizens than the latter.

Mmmm, so legitimacy is about maximizing happiness?

Only the happiness of the majority of looters.

banned:

Mmmm, so legitimacy is about maximizing happiness?

Not really. I could have omitted that phrase, since it wasn't really adding much to my point.

 

liberty student:

Your friends come to Mises.org and lecture me on the benificence of the state, they'll get a post slap in the face too.

Mises.org, as far as I know, is a nonprofit organization that promotes debate with an emphasis in Austrian Economics. Nowhere have I seen within this website that certain kind of views can be encouraged and others should be censored or post slapped in the face.

This is a forum of freedom. I am free to post whatever I want as long as I follow some courtesy and decency standards.

And I have NEVER promoted violence and theft. On the contrary, you are being very violent to me and my views. I have done nothing to you personally. I am only exercising my Freedom of Speech as guaranteed by the U.S. constitution First Amendment.

 

Rubén:

I am only exercising my Freedom of Speech as guaranteed by the U.S. constitution First Amendment.

You don't have freedom of speech.

GilesStratton:

Jon Irenicus:

Well said.

Yes, and I am happy he is going to be president. When his "change" goes monumentally awry, no one will be able to blame "capitalism" or laissez-faire. At best they'll be stuck doing what Republicans do, saying they only messed up because they inherited a problem. It's good, for liberty.

-Jon

I agree actually, I think either candidate would make the situation worse in terms of the economy and civil liberties, thus setting the objective conditions for a revolution. However, in terms of helping the subjective conditions, Obama would definately be better.

I hope that in four years time when there's a few more wars going on, the government has grown and the economy has deteriorated (sp?) and none of this "change" has actually occured people will realise what a farce and a scam democracy really is. I'm not counting on it though, the American people seem to have a memory span of just under 4 years.

I wouldn't be so optimistic. First, the economy can deteriote for decades longer before people start questioning the regime. And these days, they're more likely to blame the market rather than the government intervention for the problems. Also, Obama is such a media darling and the public is so in love with him that he can probably get away with practically everything short of outright murder.

Rubén:

Mises.org, as far as I know, is a nonprofit organization that promotes debate with an emphasis in Austrian Economics. Nowhere have I seen within this website that certain kind of views can be encouraged and others should be censored or post slapped in the face.

I'm not staff.  You'll get a post slap if you try to coerce me, or to tell me that coercion is good, or that you are rejoicing that coercers and murderers are winning elections.

Rubén:

This is a forum of freedom. I am free to post whatever I want as long as I follow some courtesy and decency standards.

You are free to post whatever LvMI lets you post, as am I.  I however am under no obligation to give an open berth to your love of pain and suffering.

Rubén:

And I have NEVER promoted violence and theft.

Sure you have.  Obama has been voting for and campaigning on death and thievery for 2 years.  Your holy unifier is an evil man.

Rubén:

On the contrary, you are being very violent to me and my views. I have done nothing to you personally.

Your views are so lame, you can't even explain them.

Rubén:

I am only exercising my Freedom of Speech as guaranteed by the U.S. constitution First Amendment.

You don't even understand the things you post.  Your freedom of speech is not guaranteed by the First Amendment.  It is protected by the First Amendment.  Free Speech is  natural right.  It exists in the absence of, and prior to any government.

Second, it is a provision that limits the government from censoring your speech, not a private website.  Mises.org is a publisher, and they can edit/delete your posts as they wish.  That's how ownership of private property works.

You've got a lot to learn.

At least some good came out of it, McCain claimed that blacks should be proud because Obama won. I lol'd.

Sphairon:

Rubén:

They don't.

One thing is to have a small state as explained by Hobbes centuries ago, while leaving the majority of issues in parivate hands.

You probably mean Locke. Hobbes embraced the idea of a Leviathan, a word used today to describe a totalitarian regulatory nanny-state.

Thank you very much, Sphairon.

I definitely meant Locke. The Venezuela I live today is becoming very close to that totalitarian regulatory nanny-state that Hobbes refers to in Leviathan, where private enterprise is being nationalized and the few of us who still believe in honest, private business must work harder to make ends meet.

For that reason it amuses me when I read other people's commenting that I am a "statist" without having met me personally or having ever set a foot in this country to experience personally what socialism inflicts to real people in the real world.

GilesStratton:

At least some good came out of it, McCain claimed that blacks should be proud because Obama won. I lol'd.

McCain has always demonstrated to have character. I think he still has a lot of future and a lot to offer.

liberty student:

You've got a lot to learn.

Not just me. You must learn about humility, a virtue you utterly lack. You must learn about accepting defeat. Your views were defeated by voters in America and those voters were supported by cheerful people all over the world. Are you pretending that you alone are right and that half of humanity alive is wrong and we all must learn from you? Come down and get real. Get used to the new world order of inclusion, not the exclusion you promote. T'es pas un peu fou?

I suggest you to start posting other threads. This post is already becoming boring and deja vu. If you want me to learn from you, perhaps you will have a better opportunity to do so if you just calm down, concede and switch the subject to something more benefitial to this forum.

Rubén:

For that reason it amuses me when I read other people's commenting that I am a "statist" without having met me personally or having ever set a foot in this country to experience personally what socialism inflicts to real people in the real world.

Holy cow, how much crying about being a victim are you going to do?

We're all afflicted by socialism.  We're all susceptible to state violence at any time.

You are a statist, because you think the state is the answer, just in a different form.  You obviously don't understand history because democracy always leads to tyranny.  It is a precursor.  And Obama is just going to be one massive fascist/socialist shift.  But like a puppy dog, you will blindly follow and worship him, even though, you can't explain in rational intelligent arguments, why you worship him so!

And that is because there is nothing there.  He is a nobody who has never accomplished anything, except be the latest successful face for the new world order.

I've been to Venezuela.  The reason why Venezuela is the way it is, is because people like you believe that if you can get control of a system of corruption, theft and murder, you can control it.  When history has shown, the act of gaining power, will end up controlling you.

liberty student:

Rubén:

liberty student:

No one is your colleague.  You are a looter and a statist.

Please learn from your wise moderator Jon:

"That is a matter of opinion".

No, you are actually a looter and a statist.  You're pro-theft, pro-violence, pro-slavery.  That is the system you endorse.  Don't run from it.  Embrace it the same way you enthusiastically rush to place your head on Obama's global breast of hope and change!

But not when it comes to Venezuela. I guess he's so sick of Chavez that he wants Americans to be happy with a more civilized version of his.

Rubén:

McCain has always demonstrated to have character. I think he still has a lot of future and a lot to offer.

Yeah, McCain had a lot of character when he sang about "bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran" bombing innocent civilians, but then he is a war criminal, participating in the illegal and immoral Vietnam war, where he bombed innocent civilians and their villages from his fighter plane.

A real character that McCain.  I wonder how many he personally killed?  1,000?  5,000?

That's a lot of blood on his hands, and we're not even talking about his votes in the Congress and Senate to murder, incarcerate and steal.  Or his votes to kill 1 million Iraqis.  Or his votes to sanction and starve 500,000 Iraqi kids.

Yeah, a real character.  LET'S HOPE THE BEST IS NOT TO COME!

Rubén:

GilesStratton:

At least some good came out of it, McCain claimed that blacks should be proud because Obama won. I lol'd.

McCain has always demonstrated to have character. I think he still has a lot of future and a lot to offer.

You entirely missed the point.

Sphairon:

You probably mean Locke. Hobbes embraced the idea of a Leviathan, a word used today to describe atotalitarian regulatory nanny-state.

I think this is bogus. Hobbes was not totalitarian, but an authoritarian. He was for laissez faire.

Rubén:

Not just me. You must learn about humility, a virtue you utterly lack.

Right now, I'm not displaying humility.  But when I have to lick the boots of my masters, the ones you endorse, you can bet I am humbled and diminished.

Rubén:

You must learn about accepting defeat.

Now that is funny coming from a statist.

Rubén:

Your views were defeated by voters in America and those voters were supported by cheerful people all over the world.

Yes.  They also defeated the views of Ron Paul, a patron of this organization, and Lew Rockwell, the President of this organization.  Our views were defeated because so many people voted, instead of withholding consent from a corrupt system, or at the very least, voting for principles.

Again, I'm not an American.  I am a Canadian.  My views are for personal liberty and the right to own property.  Views shared by most of us on this site.  We don't give a crap what Venezuelans or Africans or Germans or Russians think about how we should be ruled.  We are individuals.  We're sovereign.  And your repeated pleas to the majority, just highlight what a collectivist mindset you have.

Rubén:

Are you pretending that you alone are right and that half of humanity alive is wrong and we all must learn from you?

I'm right because I can prove it.

Rubén:

Come down and get real. Get used to the new world order of inclusion, not the exclusion you promote. T'es pas un peu fou?

I'm just pointing out this line to everyone.  This is where Ruben is coming from.  We must be assimilated.  We can't be individuals.  We can't be sovereign.  We can't have natural rights.  Wow.

Rubén:

I suggest you to start posting other threads. This post is already becoming boring and deja vu. If you want me to learn from you, perhaps you will have a better opportunity to do so if you just calm down, concede and switch the subject to something more benefitial to this forum.

We're not going to gloss over the fact that you are for enslavement and coercion.  It's not something we can move past, "it's all good" because you've been called out.  If you're going to continue posting nonsense, then you will be called out to explain and defend it.  At one point, you will realize it is indefensible, which will either be an awakening, or you will disappear forever.

I will continue to point out and correct your dangerous views.  And I will call them what they are.  Evil.  Murder.  Theft.  Repression.  Evil.

Rubén:

Not just me. You must learn about humility, a virtue you utterly lack

Why is this? I don't think LS would deny that he has a lot to learn about libertarianism. This has nothing to do with accepting defeat, LS and just about everybody else on these forums cared for Obama or McCain, perhaps a few (or even most) would have preferred to see Paul, Baldwin or even Barr win. But nobody really expected that and fewer yet would see it as a true victory. Just a lesser evil.

What this has to do with is seeing statism advance further at the expence of liberty and not being thrilled to see people such as yourself "talking with your larynx as opposed to you brain", especially not on these boards. That is what is so frustrating. Did you even bother to look at the Orwell quote I posted?

All your posts are what Orwell would describe as duckspeak.

Rubén:

. Your views were defeated by voters in America and those voters were supported by cheerful people all over the world.

No, not at all. Our views cannot be defeated from democracy. Very much unlike yours. If anything our views will only be proven to be yet more correct, or will be ast least.

Rubén:

Are you pretending that you alone are right and that half of humanity alive is wrong and we all must learn from you? Come down and get real.

You mean like, the way they used to say the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around us? Yes, we should definately choose to listen to the enlightened masses, they've never proven to be wrong. Likewise for the state.

 

liberty student:

I've been to Venezuela.  The reason why Venezuela is the way it is, is because people like you believe that if you can get control of a system of corruption, theft and murder, you can control it.  When history has shown, the act of gaining power, will end up controlling you.

If this is all you can offer as a rational, intelligent argument, you might as well close shop.

scineram:

I think this is bogus. Hobbes was not totalitarian, but an authoritarian. He was for laissez faire.

Wikipedia says in "Thomas Hobbes":

To escape this state of war, men in the state of nature accede to a social contract and establish a civil society. According to Hobbes, society is a population beneath a sovereign authority, to whom all individuals in that society cede their natural rights for the sake of protection. Any abuses of power by this authority are to be accepted as the price of peace. However, he also states that in severe cases of abuse, rebellion is expected. In particular, the doctrine of separation of powers is rejected:^[3] the sovereign must control civil, military, judicial and ecclesiastical powers.

While Hobbes apparently didn't talk about infringing upon economic freedom in particular, this is most likely due to the fact that economics simply wasn't the most popular issue of his time. Advocating a "strong central government" whose abuses must be tolerated seems to be a bad foundation to build economic laissez-faire on to me. And even if he had been an advocate of economic laissez-faire, it would've constituted a blatant contradiction. If man is not to be trusted in social matters without strong guidance, why should he fare better economy-wise?

I am making my own point, not agreeing or disagreeing with yours.

Rubén:

I am making my own point, not agreeing or disagreeing with yours.

You're not making a point. You're making a caricature out yourself.

Rubén:

I am making my own point, not agreeing or disagreeing with yours.

You're not making a point. You're making a caricature out yourself.

GilesStratton:

You mean like, the way they used to say the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around us? Yes, we should definately choose to listen to the enlightened masses, they've never proven to be wrong. Likewise for the state.

Giles, please be reasonable.  Truth is about emotion.  The Truth is subjective, just like right and wrong.  Maybe the earth is flat.  Maybe the sun does revolve around the earth.  Who are we non-Obamas to make grand determinations like that?  lol

 

Rubén:

If this is all you can offer as a rational, intelligent argument, you might as well close shop.

Truth hurts doesn't it?  You're a victim because you choose to be one.  Because you insist upon enslaving yourself and others, and then wonder why you can't be free and prosperous.

And now you are here, arguing with me that I lack the humility to appreciate that McCain is a mass murderer and war criminal with character and a lot to contribute.  Even when confronted with conflicting realities, you still won't shake your mind loose from it's chains, or let the scales fall from your eyes.

And so you will continue being a victim all of your life.

 

liberty student:

Rubén:

If this is all you can offer as a rational, intelligent argument, you might as well close shop.

Truth hurts doesn't it?  You're a victim because you choose to be one.  Because you insist upon enslaving yourself and others, and then wonder why you can't be free and prosperous.

And now you are here, arguing with me that I lack the humility to appreciate that McCain is a mass murderer and war criminal with character and a lot to contribute.  Even when confronted with conflicting realities, you still won't shake your mind loose from it's chains, or let the scales fall from your eyes.

And so you will continue being a victim all of your life.

 

I envision a much better world where victimhood will progressively be healed. You might want to block this historic process, but the winds of history are in favor of empowering prior victims to their human condition that has consistently been denied.

Rubén:

liberty student:

Rubén:

If this is all you can offer as a rational, intelligent argument, you might as well close shop.

Truth hurts doesn't it?  You're a victim because you choose to be one.  Because you insist upon enslaving yourself and others, and then wonder why you can't be free and prosperous.

And now you are here, arguing with me that I lack the humility to appreciate that McCain is a mass murderer and war criminal with character and a lot to contribute.  Even when confronted with conflicting realities, you still won't shake your mind loose from it's chains, or let the scales fall from your eyes.

And so you will continue being a victim all of your life.

 

I envision a much better world where victimhood will progressively be healed. You might want to block this historic process, but the winds of history are in favor of empowering prior victims to their human condition that has consistently been denied.

BULLSHIT.

GilesStratton:

BULLSHIT.

As Jon said yesterday night, that is a matter of opinion.

Rubén:

GilesStratton:

BULLSHIT.

As Jon said yesterday night, that is a matter of opinion.

No, it's just nonsense. Obama will continue to grant power and transfer wealth all the same, perhaps to a few different people. The transfer or wealth and power will go on nonetheless.

As for the victims? Most of these groups aren't victims, Obama simply represents them to be so to tug on the heart string of the "oppressors" in society and to gain the votes of these "victims". In reality they're just groups that Obama has chosen to give a priveledge in return for their vote.

The real victims are those that want rid of this parasite and yet are forced to endure this farce. Worse yet we have fools like you telling us to accept it and that we're wrong.

 

Rubén:

I envision a much better world where victimhood will progressively be healed. You might want to block this historic process, but the winds of history are in favor of empowering prior victims to their human condition that has consistently been denied.

Oh please. Touch me, Obama, and I shall be healed.

Are you actually serious about the stuff that you write? It seems to me that you would be better off at some liberal democrat forum!

 

katja328:

Oh please. Touch me, Obama, and I shall be healed.

Are you actually serious about the stuff that you write? It seems to me that you would be better off at some liberal democrat forum!

Actually I am very comfortable here. Austrian Economics offers lots of explanations on why this financial crisis is the way it is, while other economics currents do not provide such satisfactory answers.

Ruben, you are intellectually bankrupt. You're the supporter of a criminal. You still have to explain why the "opinions" of government are above the "opinions" of dissidents. Until you do that you're a poster child for intellectual dishonesty.

You must learn about humility, a virtue you utterly lack. You must learn about accepting defeat. Your views were defeated by voters in America and those voters were supported by cheerful people all over the world. Are you pretending that you alone are right and that half of humanity alive is wrong and we all must learn from you? Come down and get real. Get used to the new world order of inclusion, not the exclusion you promote. T'es pas un peu fou?

Since when is truth decided by a ballot box? And since when is democracy anything but a sham, a delusion, basically choosing between two very undifferentiated products, being forced to consume one of the two regardless of how one votes? As Mencken said, Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.

-Jon

As Jon said yesterday night, that is a matter of opinion.

How many more times will you misquote me? I said that because you provided no substantive evidence to back what you said of me. I certainly do not disagree with Giles' assessment...

-Jon

Jon Irenicus:

You must learn about humility, a virtue you utterly lack. You must learn about accepting defeat. Your views were defeated by voters in America and those voters were supported by cheerful people all over the world. Are you pretending that you alone are right and that half of humanity alive is wrong and we all must learn from you? Come down and get real. Get used to the new world order of inclusion, not the exclusion you promote. T'es pas un peu fou?

Since when is truth decided by a ballot box? And since when is democracy anything but a sham, a delusion, basically choosing between two very undifferentiated products, being forced to consume one of the two regardless of how one votes? As Mencken said, Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.

-Jon

That reminds me, I still need to read Mencken's Notes on Democracy.

One of the reasons people like Obama is because they believe that once Obama becomes president then they and noone else will have to work (sic)! Talk about socialism!Someone made this comment to me this morning.

liberty student:

I'd like for you to explain, specifically what it is about Obama, that you Ruben, believe sets him apart.  Politically.

GilesStratton:

He has the ability to get so much more done for the special interest groups than McCain does.

I still don't understand how people can blindlessly follow such unbacked hope. I persevere to show my parents facts ogf austrian economics on how he will not be able to save the economy, which angers them; they bellow in their anger that he signifies a change, though they fail to say that he will fix the economy(which obviously he won't) without cringing. Democracy sucks.

People are stupid. We are rare. This will not change.

 

Michael S:

 

I responded a couple days ago! I'm not online 24/7. No i am not taking anything personally. You're not listening! Don't judge people. is that so hard to understand?

Nitroadict:

I'm also not online 24/7,

I didn't say you where! because of your "your just now responding" comment, I was letting you know that I wasn't online 24/7

Nitroadict:

nor do I keep track of hypocrites in a petty dispute that wasn't initiated by me,

it did seem that way. Whats with all the name calling? I am not a hypocrite!

Nitroadict:

unless you want to call a passing observation of opinion an "unfair judgment"

I told you that your "passing observation" was wrong, yet you still want to believe that it is right. Yes, you did make a (unfair) judgment.

Nitroadict:

I'm getting yelled at to not judge people, from someone who judges me?

I'm not yelling at you I'm trying to educate you! Sure I might challenge you or I might challenge your comfort zone/level or what have you but I never judged you! I know that I use the wrong word sometimes. I do not have a college edumacation or a PHD, MD,  MBA, NFL,  NBA, NCAA, IRS, CIA or NASA like half the users of this forum.

Nitroadict:

Unless you want to show me the gun that stops me from judging other people, please: move on

 

Your putting words in my mouth again! I never told you to stop judging other people. I was trying to tell you why you should not judge people, There is a big difference! You can live your life however you want to live it. Is it that bad or wrong to stick up for yourself? people disagree all the time, just because someone is different then you and you disagree with someone and, doesn't  give you the right to judge them. Instead of judging people try to understand them. Do whatever floats your boat, Just don't judge me in the process ok?

 

 

Jon Irenicus:

You must learn about humility, a virtue you utterly lack. You must learn about accepting defeat. Your views were defeated by voters in America and those voters were supported by cheerful people all over the world. Are you pretending that you alone are right and that half of humanity alive is wrong and we all must learn from you? Come down and get real. Get used to the new world order of inclusion, not the exclusion you promote. T'es pas un peu fou?

Since when is truth decided by a ballot box? And since when is democracy anything but a sham, a delusion, basically choosing between two very undifferentiated products, being forced to consume one of the two regardless of how one votes? As Mencken said, Democracy is also a form of worship. It is the worship of Jackals by Jackasses.

-Jon

Democracy is a fraud but I'm curios..... Couldn't they actually use democracy when it benefits them (the few elites) the most ( I.E not rig the election, actually count the votes and etc)?